The Chronicles of Narcissist

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
Not disagreeing with the conclusion, but re:

Generally speaking, no person is obligated to render aid or save the life of another unless it is their job, or they caused the person to need aid or endangered. IOW, a duty to save a life can arise by job description or by action.

The people who block the abortion may not be the same as those who caused the pregnancy.

In the context of tax dollars spent, the folks blocking the use of tax dollars are often not the same folks whose abortions are blocked.

Thx!

TomB
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
And let's be honest: those who concur but are not misogynists or religious are both unlikely to speak up on the matter (for fear of misunderstanding)

That's a problem. If you cannot properly elucidate why you feel a law should be enacted, you have little business making laws.

So, we are up to: a) Legislators cannot tell us why they want the law in place, b) the law is polluted with religious and misogynist design, c) the kids in question are not taken care of, and d) we are not of consensus that this is a question of fetal rights, such that the State has any role in this in the first place (and, at the moment, the "we" that says the government isn't involved includes the SCOTUS).

Why, exactly, are we even discussing putting such laws on the books?

I have mentioned this myself somewhere, I don't recall if it was in this thread or not: there are an increasingly vocal group of religious types in both major US political parties who are calling politicians to task over this exact point, myself among them.

That's nice. Once you've screwed up, Child Protective Services doesn't let you have your kid back until you've proven you've shaped up. Same philosophy here - no government *demands* that a child be born until *AFTER* you can prove they'll be properly cared for.

So, when that increasingly vocal group has actually had sufficient impact, then perhaps we can talk.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Are you a capitalist? Some strategic word replacement and this tirade is positively Randian.

I won't say that I am a capitalist because I do not think I am entirely capitalist (I may not even be mostly capitalist, I'm not sure). The pure capitalist system results in deregulation of various products, including medicine. In the deregulated days of medicine, heroin was actually sold as children's cough medicine in the Sears catalog.

Plus, the deregulation of banks led to the packaging of toxic loans into toxic securities that were speculated in by banks who would have previously been forbidden to do so.

Also, I do believe in a single-payer health-care system, and in anti-trust laws.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Considering that a woman can be implanted with a fertilized egg not of her own, and considering the range of meanings of parasite, I don't think the discussion is addressing the primary issue raised by Mechapilot: A pregnancy may be unwanted, and while conferring a benefit in some cases, does not always confer a benefit, and has considerable cost, leaving the balance of value uncertain.

Thank you. I know it doesn't fit the scientific definition, but by at at least some of the more common parlance definitions having to bear an unwanted fetus is similar to being forced to bear a parasite. And even if the fetus does provide a benefit to the mother, the question of net benefit or net harm remains an open one, especially if you consider all the kinds of harm done (physical, psychological, social, and economic).

And, from what I've seen, the real obstacle to a fetus being a kind of parasite under the scientific definition is that it is the same species as the host (since the net benefit/harm question remains open). Now, a fetus could be said to fit a fairly significant part of the scientific definition, but it doesn't fit all of it. However, the question (at least colloquially) remains open. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it may be a duck; or at least it may be viewed as such by those not using scientific definitions.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
That's a problem. If you cannot properly elucidate why you feel a law should be enacted, you have little business making laws.

So, we are up to: a) Legislators cannot tell us why they want the law in place,

It isn't inability, it is unwillingness. You know as well as anyone that the abortion issue is as much a political litmus test to the political left as taxation is to the political right. It almost doesn't matter what your voting/legislative record is on other issues, or how well thought out or well considered your position is, if you oppose abortion in any way, you are going to be painted as a misogynist or a religious extremist by the hardline left. Trying to rehabilitate your image will be Sisyphean.

b) the law is polluted with religious and misogynist design,

Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Why do conservative homosexual vote for GOP Candidates?* In the end, they feel their goals as citizens of the USA are best served by the GOP, even as the majority of politicians in that party try to keep them as second-class citizens.

Is it an uncomfortable situation? Certainly. But politics, as has often been noted, makes for strange bedfellows.

c) the kids in question are not taken care of, and d) we are not of consensus that this is a question of fetal rights, such that the State has any role in this in the first place (and, at the moment, the "we" that says the government isn't involved includes the SCOTUS).

Careful- SCOTUS's ruling was only covering the language of 14th Amendment. It is unclear- since no case has challenged it- whether such language in other statutes is affected at all. The SCOTUS (especially one dominated by conservatives) could conceivably distinguish between the language of the 14th and of fetal homicide statutes.

IOW, just like corporations are considered "persons" under the law in a limited sense, if a case came before them, SCOTUS could rule the laws unconstitutional, but could also consider them constitutional, defining fetuses as humans for the limited purposes of those statutes.

Why, exactly, are we even discussing putting such laws on the books?

They're on the books now; their existence is a complication in the issue.

Same philosophy here - no government *demands* that a child be born until *AFTER* you can prove they'll be properly cared for.

By that point, a life may have been extinguished.











* I could also point at violent biker gangs that do major toy drives, KKK groups that participate in environmental cleanup operations, and so forth.
 
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Ryujin

Legend
I'm having trouble figuring out if Trump is from the Arthur Carlson or Les Nessman school of politics.

[video=youtube;GISoeNnsmcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GISoeNnsmcs[/video]

[video=youtube;SU8gHJySPLY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8gHJySPLY&t=7m8s[/video]
 



tuxgeo

Adventurer
You would have to slap a toupee upon either one of those gentlement to have your selected target have the same appearance as The Donald.

Of course, the cost of a toupee is chump-change compared to the perks and benefits of being President, so have at it!
 

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