Orc or Hobgoblin?

I am interested in what players think are the fundamental differences physiologically between Orcs and Hobgoblins. They get different stats, but whenever one attempt to approach how they are different it usually comes to "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" which doesn't make any sense since among the individual races, assuming they aren't all made as clones off an assembly line, you are going to have different alignments among individuals. You are going to have the odd Orc monk who is Lawful or the Hobgoblin AntiPaladin who is by definition Chaotic Evil. And that demonstrates that they don't transform into one another when they have a different alignment.

Then maybe it could talk about society and... well... sure. On a maco-scale Orcs tend to be used as depictions of all the negative ideas we have historically held about primitive tribes. They get various traits of African tribes and Native Americans and Gauls and Huns mixed in together while Hobgoblins tend to mimic the negative traits of various cultures that we like to attribute to foreigners-- often plenty of orientalism mixed in with their depiction. If in an old non-PC western movie, the Orcs would be the "Injins" and the Hobgoblins would be the Mexicans or possibly the Chinese or whomever the "foreigner" is who lacks those good traits attributed to the true, real, honest, red-blooded 'Mericans. If you are going to do a story where a ship crash lands on an island of cannibals, you turn those natives into Orcs. If you are going to follow the script of a WWII narrative then you turn the Nazis and/or Japanese into Hobgoblins... and if you are doing a Cold War story, they become the Russians.
But that only goes so far and only works on a collective scale if you use them as a united force rather than individuals. You can have both of them working for the same mercenary company, either one can be bounty hunters or pirates, either one can become a guard or a bandit and in those roles there is no longer such a clear and distinct difference.

Moreover, the races are often given very, very different attributes suggesting that they should be wildly and fundamentally physically quite different and distinct from one another.
Now, sometimes it is easy to tell the difference because Orcs get presented as emerald green while Hobgoblins get shown as crimson. But plenty more times it just isn't too terribly clear. Both get presented as having gray skin often enough making it all murkier. I gathered a set of pictures that I felt lay within this range and I am interested in how others view these pictures.

I labeled each one so. I would appreciate it if people could say which ones they think are Orcs (or Half-Orcs) and which ones they would label Hobgoblins (or Bugbears). I know that plenty of you might be familiar with these pictures and know the "right" answer, but maybe try to put that out of your mind if possible and having the pictures laid side-by-side based on your own personal criteria which one the picture should be regardless of how it was labeled in the book. I am not nearly as interested in the "right" answer as I am in trying to get a sense of how players separate one from the other based purely on appearance so that even when you use them in the same role, it makes sense to describe someone as one or the other.

And by all means feel free to explain what the criteria you used to decide was.

Tusks.

In short, and my own humble opinions:

1. Hobgoblins are part of a larger group of races. They are tied together with goblins and bugbears. They are, ultimately, a society, with hobgoblins forming the most dangerous subrace (goblins are small and disorganized; bugbears are big and disorganized... hobgoblins are, well, organized).

Orcs, however, are their own thing. There are orogs, I suppose, and half-orcs, but these are a result of the fact that orcs will breed with anything. They intermix with other species. (there's a bit of real-world racism in there. Orcs are often lumped in with the idea of "impure races", whereas hobgoblins are more like an evil version of Rome).

2. Hobgoblins are organized. They have a military command structure. Man for man, they are not an orc's equal... but in a battlefield, they'll win every time.

Orcs are barbarian tribes. They have an individualistic, warrior culture.

3. Both races are cruel. But while hobgoblins lean towards an enjoyment for the expression of strength over the weak and the corruption of those around them (similar to devils), Orcs are all about physical cruelty and the use of force (similar to demons).

4. Hobgoblins form their own nations and mercenary units. Orcs ignore national boundaries and form tribes... and individuals will join mercenary companies.

5. In a one on one battle, you'd want to fight a hobgoblin. But if it was ten against ten, you'd prefer fighting the orcs, where the use of tactics would give you an edge.


As a sidenote, I ran an encounter of a group of orcs, orogs, and orc commanders against some hobgoblins, a hobgoblin captain, and a low-level hobgoblin mage in 5e. The XP amounts were about the same. The orcs had the combat for the first few rounds, but eventually the hobgoblins turned the tides and won the battle.

I've run similar combats in every edition, and the results tend to the same. Played out as barbarians versus Romans, the Romans (hobgoblins) always win.

You forgot this pic of Hobgoblins......

cmad1977 said:

Tusks.

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Which one has them, which one doesn't? I am not sure any of the pictures I provided have lower jaw teeth large enough to be considered 'tusks'.

Wik said:

In short, and my own humble opinions:

1. Hobgoblins are part of a larger group of races. They are tied together with goblins and bugbears. They are, ultimately, a society, with hobgoblins forming the most dangerous subrace (goblins are small and disorganized; bugbears are big and disorganized... hobgoblins are, well, organized).

Orcs, however, are their own thing. There are orogs, I suppose, and half-orcs, but these are a result of the fact that orcs will breed with anything. They intermix with other species. (there's a bit of real-world racism in there. Orcs are often lumped in with the idea of "impure races", whereas hobgoblins are more like an evil version of Rome).

2. Hobgoblins are organized. They have a military command structure. Man for man, they are not an orc's equal... but in a battlefield, they'll win every time.

Orcs are barbarian tribes. They have an individualistic, warrior culture.

3. Both races are cruel. But while hobgoblins lean towards an enjoyment for the expression of strength over the weak and the corruption of those around them (similar to devils), Orcs are all about physical cruelty and the use of force (similar to demons).

4. Hobgoblins form their own nations and mercenary units. Orcs ignore national boundaries and form tribes... and individuals will join mercenary companies.

5. In a one on one battle, you'd want to fight a hobgoblin. But if it was ten against ten, you'd prefer fighting the orcs, where the use of tactics would give you an edge.

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Okay, but none of this applies on an individual basis. If you have just one Orc or just one Hobgoblin running around, how do you tell them apart? You are in a tavern looking for someone who can hold their own in a fight. Particularly if you consider them totally unrelated, how do you tell which one it is before you speak?

Tuzenbach said:

You forgot this pic of Hobgoblins......

View attachment 69475

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I know those. Those are winkies. Interestingly, Wikies were identical to Munchkins in the book, but I guess in the movie they decided to make them look like the witch of the east to better explain her own appearance.

Orcs have pig snouts and tusks.

Hobgoblins are goblinish, but it's goblins-as-fey, not just larger goblins with the same proportions. Muscles bulge in weird places, they're oddly proportioned, they're stealthier than they have any right to be. They're disciplined, but you'd wish they weren't.

Physiological differences......... Hobgoblins have larger brains?

If you want to know from physical appearances if you are dealing with a hobgoblin or orc this may help:

HOBGOBLINS

"have dark orange or red-orange skin, and hair ranging from dark red-brown to dark gray. Yellow or dark brown eyes peer out beneath their beetling brows, and their wide mouths sport sharp and yellowed teeth. A male hobgoblin might have a large blue or red nose, which symbolizes virility and power among goblinkin."

ORCS

"have stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks."

These descriptions come directly from the source.

I think of the bad guys on the cover of the Keep on the Borderlands as my basic template for hobgoblins. I generally view hobgoblins as either like shogunate japanese (based off the 1e MM pictures), or sort of roman (from later 3e style depictions) in culture, very martial oriented empires. I think of hobgoblins as leaner and taller while orcs are more hunched and hulking, often beefier.

TheHobgoblin said:

Okay, but none of this applies on an individual basis. If you have just one Orc or just one Hobgoblin running around, how do you tell them apart? You are in a tavern looking for someone who can hold their own in a fight. Particularly if you consider them totally unrelated, how do you tell which one it is before you speak?

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Well, I don't think hobgoblins drink alone. That's not good soldierly behaviour!

But I'd imagine the orc as the one making a bunch of noise, drinking too much, and slapping barmaids on the butt. The hobgoblin is the one trying to get free drinks by dropping thinly veiled hints to the bartender, glaring at people hoping they'll throw the first punch so the hobgoblin can legally run them through with a dagger.