Canadian Federal Elections, eh

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Legatus Legionis

< BWAH HA Ha ha >
I am not sure there is much point to paying off loans that you can carry. We always talk about making sacrifices for the future but I think it is actually philosophically weak to presuppose that the future deserves better than the present. Especially since those people in the future are determined by what we do in the present. . .
Is that not how Greece thought in the past.

Borrow as much as you can for today, and damn tomorrow as it will be someone else problem.

As this last year has shone, tomorrows problem can to ahead this year.

No, thinking of only today and not tomorrow is a bad way to run anything. You have to consider BOTH.

Which sadly, during any election campaign, the politicians only talk of TODAY, and not how tomorrow it is the taxpayers who will get screwed in the end.
 

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Is that not how Greece thought in the past.
Not really. Greece is something else and using it to scare voters in a Canadian context is dishonest to use a euphemism.

Greece doctored its books when it came to its finances. It didn't collect the taxes it should. It also joined the Euro zone, but that has a lots of problems the Canadian federation doesn't have. Finally, Greece was a victim of market irrationality. Markets are emotional and more than a few countries with worse debt than Greece could have been hit by the market panic that made Greece's interest rates go up. Even if Greece had bad fundamental economics, it was as much at the wrong place at the wrong time. Spain, Portugal Italy or Ireland could have been the victims of market panic.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
I knew you were gonna say that. And obviously it is because you are oppressing this member of the Francophone minority. Help! Help! Oppression is being commited! Help!

We got great interest rates when rates were high. Renegotiate those loans and the cost of debt maintenance drops significantly. In fact in the 2012-2013 fiscal year a whopping $0.11 of every tax dollar went to debt maintenance. That's roughly what all of the healthcare transfer costs were for the same year. It's more than our entire national defence spending for the same year.

Now is the time to be renegotiating those loan rates. If we were going to borrow money now would be the time but since we already owe so much, we're better off paying the debt down and reducing our costs. In the long run it's a bigger pay-off.
That is the thing, with the debt at 30% of the GDP, we really do not owe that much money. There is lots of leeway and no urgency. If numbers for the interest paid look big, it is because the Tories have been cutting in government spending and transferes for a while.

There's that disagreement thing I mentioned ;)
Indeed. Wait. Did I agree?

I hear that a lot, from a lot of disparate groups. One of those "historical factors" has been a constant threat to secede, driving away both national and international business. How long do we pay for that, giving Quebec things that the rest of the country can't afford? Bad decisions have consequences.
Heh, that is told to Québécois to scare them away from independence. During the 1980 referendum there was talked of "la piastre à Lévesque" or Lévesque's buck. The Canadian dollar was worth 1,10$ Us dollar and an independent Québec was supposed to have an dollar worth 0,60$ thus Lévesque's Buck. Plot twist, in the 90s the Canadian dollar was worth 0,60$ and it was supposed to be good for industries that exported to the US. With the price of oil going down the Canadian dollar is again going down and that is supposed to be good for Ontario and Québec's exports as Canada is suffering from a form of Dutch Disease. Now it seems a strong dollar is bad for Québec. Ironic.

There is a lot theatre and rhetoric when it comes to scaring Québécois. Not so much truth.It was during one of the first elections with the PQ participating that a brinks trucks full of money was preparing to leave Québec. Translate it if you can. It is a good example of manipulation of public opinion in Québec.

The real historical factors are colonialism and the Catholic Church.

Except that a country devalues its currency when it does that, because it doesn't have the GDP to support the value of the currency at par with its neighbours. Anyone want a loaf of bread? It's only one wheelbarrow full of Drachma, on special today.
It does devaluate the currency and that comes with its issues too. Not doubt about that. Like the rich see the value of their wealth decrease as they are the ones with the most savings. But it doesn't mean the price of goods will skyrocket. Iceland let the value of its money go down and it benefited from it even when prices did go up after the 2008 crisis. It all comes to priorities: the people or the wealthy.
 

Kaodi

Hero
Is that not how Greece thought in the past.

Borrow as much as you can for today, and damn tomorrow as it will be someone else problem.

As this last year has shone, tomorrows problem can to ahead this year.

No, thinking of only today and not tomorrow is a bad way to run anything. You have to consider BOTH.

Which sadly, during any election campaign, the politicians only talk of TODAY, and not how tomorrow it is the taxpayers who will get screwed in the end.

I did not say screw tomorrow. I said tomorrow does not intrinsically deserve better than today. Why should today pay off today's and yesterday's debts so that tomorrow can be free of worries? Why does today deserve to get screwed by tomorrow?
 

Ryujin

Legend
I knew you were gonna say that. And obviously it is because you are oppressing this member of the Francophone minority. Help! Help! Oppression is being commited! Help!

Can't help it. It's my Anglo culture ;)

That is the thing, with the debt at 30% of the GDP, we really do not owe that much money. There is lots of leeway and no urgency. If numbers for the interest paid look big, it is because the Tories have been cutting in government spending and transferes for a while.

Renegotiating rates isn't paying the debt off. It's just rationalizing the amount that we're paying to service the debt, to reflect the current interest rates. I think that we should do both, but just renegotiating the rates doesn't hurt anything. If it was your personal mortgage that you took out at 15% and the rates had dropped this much you would do it, wouldn't you?

Indeed. Wait. Did I agree?

Couldn't be. Honoré Mercier would roll over in his grave!

Heh, that is told to Québécois to scare them away from independence. During the 1980 referendum there was talked of "la piastre à Lévesque" or Lévesque's buck. The Canadian dollar was worth 1,10$ Us dollar and an independent Québec was supposed to have an dollar worth 0,60$ thus Lévesque's Buck. Plot twist, in the 90s the Canadian dollar was worth 0,60$ and it was supposed to be good for industries that exported to the US. With the price of oil going down the Canadian dollar is again going down and that is supposed to be good for Ontario and Québec's exports as Canada is suffering from a form of Dutch Disease. Now it seems a strong dollar is bad for Québec. Ironic.

There is a lot theatre and rhetoric when it comes to scaring Québécois. Not so much truth.It was during one of the first elections with the PQ participating that a brinks trucks full of money was preparing to leave Québec. Translate it if you can. It is a good example of manipulation of public opinion in Québec.

The real historical factors are colonialism and the Catholic Church. [/QUOTE]

It was more than scare tactics, though there was a bit of that in the amplification of events. A large number of big companies did, in fact, pull their head offices out of Quebec. Why would transfer payments continue? Why would the Canadian dollar be the currency of a 'free' Quebec? Why would the hydro deal with Newfoundland continue? The issue had a lot more levels than the Separatists ever wanted Quebecois to consider.

It does devaluate the currency and that comes with its issues too. Not doubt about that. Like the rich see the value of their wealth decrease as they are the ones with the most savings. But it doesn't mean the price of goods will skyrocket. Iceland let the value of its money go down and it benefited from it even when prices did go up after the 2008 crisis. It all comes to priorities: the people or the wealthy.

Iceland was a rather peculiar situation. In Greece one of the big issues is that no one seems to pay their taxes, so the government has nothing to work with. In a case like theirs the rich would survive, while the regular folk struggled and starved.
 

Ryujin

Legend
I did not say screw tomorrow. I said tomorrow does not intrinsically deserve better than today. Why should today pay off today's and yesterday's debts so that tomorrow can be free of worries? Why does today deserve to get screwed by tomorrow?

Perhaps it doesn't deserve better, but it certainly doesn't deserve worse. We're giving the future a worse starting point than we had.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Can't help it. It's my Anglo culture ;)
I bet you use the imperial system instead of the metric one.

Renegotiating rates isn't paying the debt off. It's just rationalizing the amount that we're paying to service the debt, to reflect the current interest rates. I think that we should do both, but just renegotiating the rates doesn't hurt anything. If it was your personal mortgage that you took out at 15% and the rates had dropped this much you would do it, wouldn't you?
I have no issue with renegociating interest rates, I have issues with prioritizing paying back the debt over prioritizing economic recovery and growth.

And you are making me defend economic growth. Growth is not that viable if we consider that trying to fulfill the unlimited needs of a ever growing population with limited resources is one of capitalism's flaws. You happy now?

Couldn't be. Honoré Mercier would roll over in his grave!
If you speak English and say Parizeau's name three time while looking in a mirror, he appears and makes you eat poutine.

It was more than scare tactics, though there was a bit of that in the amplification of events. A large number of big companies did, in fact, pull their head offices out of Quebec.
That is true, but that comes from being in Canada. A country with a small population can only have so many economic centers. Toronto is Canada's economic center and head offices tend to congregate at the same place. Head offices moving to Toronto has been a trend since before the 1960s when the independence movement coalesced into its modern form. If Québec was an independent nation, corporations would need to have head offices here.

Why would transfer payments continue?
Section 36 of the Constitution garanties equalization payments. So it is in your interest to get rid of Québec so we aren't a burden to you anymore. Once we leave you do not have to pay us any equalization payments. Seems like sweet deal for the both of us. ;)

As long as Québec is in it, Why would the Canadian dollar be the currency of a 'free' Quebec?
Negociations. Québec and Canada could still share some institutions, like currency, if both parties agree to it. Of course, if negociations fail, Québec could end up with its own currency. Some people could think it is in Québec's interests to have its own too, so who knows. Tar Sand Dutch Disease wasn't a thing in 1995. It isn't like the Canadian dollar wouldn't be recognized the morning after a victorious referendum. So, for a while at least, we'd still have the same currency.

Why would the hydro deal with Newfoundland continue?
Why wouldn't it? Hydro-Québec, a public corporation, signed a deal with a province. Happens all the time. It isn't like the institutions that signed the deal ceased to exist. Québec signs deals with other nations and states all the time. They would still be in affect. They might need renegociations since some restrictions from Ottawa might disappear and new elements pop up, but they would still be in affect like any contract. Depending on the deal, it won't be in anyone's interests to say the deals are now void. If they were signed in the first place it is because both parties benefited from it.

The issue had a lot more levels than the Separatists ever wanted Quebecois to consider.
On that you are mistaken. Independentist leaders really thought out the consequences of what they were doing. Maybe it is Canada that has more to lose than us. :p

Iceland was a rather peculiar situation. In Greece one of the big issues is that no one seems to pay their taxes, so the government has nothing to work with. In a case like theirs the rich would survive, while the regular folk struggled and starved.
The problem with Greece right now is that people are starving thanks to austerity and there is no end in sight. If they had printed money their economy might already be doing better, like in Iceland, and people would be starving. Or just killing themselves.
 

Kaodi

Hero
Perhaps it doesn't deserve better, but it certainly doesn't deserve worse. We're giving the future a worse starting point than we had.

Not sure how true that is yet. World has steadily gotten less violent. Sounds kind of better to me. Not that that is guaranteed to keep happening in the future. But the important question to ask really is under what circumstances most people on Earth will wish they had never been born.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
A whole generation will say they wish they were never born under Donald Trump's presidency.
 

Legatus Legionis

< BWAH HA Ha ha >
Some French Politician during the height of the PQ many years ago said that an independent Quebec would still be getting Millions of dollars annually from Canada.

Instead of calling it "transfer payments", it would be called "foreign aid".
 

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