Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 24, 2015

Imagine ML-King became president of USA and 15 years on another black man became president and was implicated as well as his cabinet in a number of corruption scandals with no real repercussions following, would you say that he is sinless because of having a previously disadvantaged background?

Some people rise above the circumstances of their upbringing, some never do.

(Though I wouldn't call the latter "sinless"...)

Besides, remember, you're comparing Africans & Americans. We- or at least, large subsections of our country-have done exactly that with old white racist politicians in the past.

It is going to take time- possibly 2-3 generations- before you're going to see a consistently better kind of politician rise up out of the oppressed underclass. Not just because it takes that long for those people to become worthy of notice, but also to have the electorate recognize that those guys are better than the demagogues. And even then, you're going to see spikes of nativism, racism (veiled or overt), isolationism, and all those "isms" that hold nations back.

Exhibit A: look at what is going on in American politics right now.

Umbran · Aug 24, 2015

Sadras said:
At what point/age does one of a certain environment commit a sin? Stealing is bad in every culture I know.

Tell that to Jean Valjean and Javert (or Aladdin, if you want a cartoon reference). Stealing is bad... unless you're starving.

You're talking about folks who grew up in an abusive culture - you should expect them to continue forward as if they were abused. And abuse survivors typically have problems. For individuals, an abuse survivor can go to a therapist, and learn to manage their problems, and change. There's no practical way to do that with an entire culture.

Sadras · Aug 24, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
Exhibit A: look at what is going on in American politics right now.

Fair point.
Nepotism is another one of the big 'isms' we experience a lot of here in South Africa.

Umbran said:
Tell that to Jean Valjean and Javert (or Aladdin, if you want a cartoon reference). Stealing is bad... unless you're starving.

You're talking about folks who grew up in an abusive culture - you should expect them to continue forward as if they were abused. And abuse survivors typically have problems. For individuals, an abuse survivor can go to a therapist, and learn to manage their problems, and change. There's no practical way to do that with an entire culture.

But that is exactly why it is ever more sinful, because those that are currently in power struggled with all those that were and are underprivileged and now they are currently the abusers hiding behind racism and the eternal excuse of blaming apartheid. Just remember my issues are with the management not the culture or people.

One cannot just accept a whitewashing of the president and his cronies corruptness when there is so much that needs to be done to improve the lives of the masses. Stating that they are carrying the scars of abused children at the age of 50+ and 60+ and that apartheid mentality is still now enforcing their actions to steal from their own people, denying them decent basic needs, infrastructure, education, medical care...etc is a bit of a stretch for me.

If I were to extend that view to Iraq and Afghan...etc then you know what, why do we bother blaming the new governments there or the terrorists that threaten western society. They are children carrying the scars of their own environment. Sinless.

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 24, 2015

Nobody is actually whitewashing current Arabic regimes...because we know from past experience what whitewashing gets us there. Yes, there is some minimizing going on, but that ALWAYS happens at certain points in matters of diplomacy.

Kramodlog · Aug 24, 2015

Sadras said:
Fair point.
Nepotism is another one of the big 'isms' we experience a lot of here in South Africa.

But that is exactly why it is ever more sinful, because those that are currently in power struggled with all those that were and are underprivileged and now they are currently the abusers hiding behind racism and the eternal excuse of blaming apartheid. Just remember my issues are with the management not the culture or people.

One cannot just accept a whitewashing of the president and his cronies corruptness when there is so much that needs to be done to improve the lives of the masses. Stating that they are carrying the scars of abused children at the age of 50+ and 60+ and that apartheid mentality is still now enforcing their actions to steal from their own people, denying them decent basic needs, infrastructure, education, medical care...etc is a bit of a stretch for me.

If I were to extend that view to Iraq and Afghan...etc then you know what, why do we bother blaming the new governments there or the terrorists that threaten western society. They are children carrying the scars of their own environment. Sinless.

In think you are confusing explanations with excuses. That is, people in this thread aren't saying they are "sinless", just that there are reasons for the "sins", and those reasons makes some posters less prone to out right condemnation.

But I'm curious, what solution do you propose to remedy the situation? You seem to think that black people in South Africa can't rule themselves and someone should do it for them.

Sadras · Aug 24, 2015

goldomark said:
In think you are confusing explanations with excuses. That is, people in this thread aren't saying they are "sinless", just that there are reasons for the "sins", and those reasons makes some posters less prone to out right condemnation.

But I'm curious, what solution do you propose to remedy the situation? You seem to think that black people in South Africa can't rule themselves and someone should do it for them.

This is funny. First you accuse me of misrepresenting what posters are saying and then you misrepresent what I am saying.

Perhaps when you visit South Africa and see for yourself the appalling conditions that some South Africans live in, you would care to condemn the current president and his cronies with the amount of obvious corruption and apathy that is going on. Either that or I might have to wait for the American media to paint him in a bad light (like North Korea's) before condemnation comes more willingly

This is a first, I'd never thought I would have to defend myself to educated people about how bad politicians are - no matter what their background.

Ryujin · Aug 24, 2015

Sadras said:
Fair point.
Nepotism is another one of the big 'isms' we experience a lot of here in South Africa.

That's an issue everywhere.

But that is exactly why it is ever more sinful, because those that are currently in power struggled with all those that were and are underprivileged and now they are currently the abusers hiding behind racism and the eternal excuse of blaming apartheid. Just remember my issues are with the management not the culture or people.

One cannot just accept a whitewashing of the president and his cronies corruptness when there is so much that needs to be done to improve the lives of the masses. Stating that they are carrying the scars of abused children at the age of 50+ and 60+ and that apartheid mentality is still now enforcing their actions to steal from their own people, denying them decent basic needs, infrastructure, education, medical care...etc is a bit of a stretch for me.

If I were to extend that view to Iraq and Afghan...etc then you know what, why do we bother blaming the new governments there or the terrorists that threaten western society. They are children carrying the scars of their own environment. Sinless.

It may not be right, but the desire for revenge is a natural one. When you've been under the boot for most of your life there's a definite motivation to try and apply a little of that boot yourself.

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 24, 2015

...and is currently one of the biggest concerns in the current chaos of the Middle East.

Kramodlog · Aug 24, 2015

Sadras said:
This is funny. First you accuse me of misrepresenting what posters are saying and then you misrepresent what I am saying.

More saying that you seem to misunderstand what people are saying.

Perhaps when you visit South Africa and see for yourself the appalling conditions that some South Africans live in, you would care to condemn the current president and his cronies with the amount of obvious corruption and apathy that is going on. Either that or I might have to wait for the American media to paint him in a bad light (like North Korea's) before condemnation comes more willingly

This is a first, I'd never thought I would have to defend myself to educated people about how bad politicians are - no matter what their background.

Not all politicians are the same, but that is another matter.

To go back to my question, what do you suggest should be done to resolve the problem?

Sadras · Aug 25, 2015

Ryujin said:
It may not be right, but the desire for revenge is a natural one. When you've been under the boot for most of your life there's a definite motivation to try and apply a little of that boot yourself.

Revenge sure, but being part of a struggle for liberation and when finally realising it, stealing from your very people that helped put you in power. No. That is just plain greed - which of course you can argue is also a natural desire

Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

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