Some rules musings

Wicht · Feb 20, 2002

Nobody likes to hear their work criticized but having just started to read the Synnibar rpg (boy is that a stinker) I am reminded of the truth that just because the author thinks a thing is good does not make it so. Therefore I am trying to be very open minded about the criticisms just now starting to be piled upon YB 2.0

So here are my current conclusions.

1. I really don't see anything wrong per se with the dirty trick, chi strike or the current initiative set up. I think the elements of the rules involved can be worked around with good strategy.

2. I am pleased with the speed matches and how they seem to be popular but think a 2 flag speed match might not be a good thing.

3. I agree that perhaps the dojo style should not grant an immunity

4. I could see my way to replacing the Yakuza's sneaky trick with the power to change the location of any one move to any single location known by the yakuza fighter. This would be good for only 1 round in a match.

5. Contrary to what someone has said (Reiella I think), if a yakuza gets a fist of fury and 2 poison blades they should be able to stick a poison blade on each move

And finally, I apoligize for not having updated the rules yet but real life has really not been conducive for the past two weeks to the project.

ok pile on now

Vanor · Feb 20, 2002

Wicht said:
So here are my current conclusions.

And here's some responces

1. I really don't see anything wrong per se with the dirty trick, chi strike or the current initiative set up. I think the elements of the rules involved can be worked around with good strategy.

They can yes, in my last fight with Darkwolf, I used my chi strike in the first round, not to get rid of it, but rather in the hope that he used his best move to counter my first round move. I figured that would give me a much better chance at winning a round with Fists of Fury.

2. I am pleased with the speed matches and how they seem to be popular but think a 2 flag speed match might not be a good thing.

I like speed matches, because they will be finished in X rounds (x = (total flags x2) - 1) or less. (heh always wanted to work math into one of these posts

) I would agree a 2 flag speed match would be bad. Perhaps we could set it in the rules that 3 flags is the min for a speed match?

3. I agree that perhaps the dojo style should not grant an immunity

This is acceptable to me. In reality it won't make much differance with how things have gone. People only have 1 sig style, so having 1 style that doesn't grant immunity, when you have 3 or more that do... The odds don't change much.

4. I could see my way to replacing the Yakuza's sneaky trick with the power to change the location of any one move to any single location known by the yakuza fighter. This would be good for only 1 round in a match.

Only prob I see with this, is your then giving them 4 powers that can be used to make a round a 2 point round. 3 posion blades, and this new power, which is basicly a form of the honored paths mastery power. I'm not really against this, just pointing out a potentinal imblance.

5. Contrary to what someone has said (Reiella I think), if a yakuza gets a fist of fury and 2 poison blades they should be able to stick a poison blade on each move.

I agree they should be able to, posion blade should work pretty much the same way mastery does. The way it's writen however it doesn't... But this would be easy to fix

And finally, I apoligize for not having updated the rules yet but real life has really not been conducive for the past two weeks to the project.

If you have a list of what needs to be updated, with what it should be... I'd be happy to do the grunt work. But I suppose if you had such a list, it wouldn't take much to update the rules...

But the offer stands anyway.

Wicht · Feb 20, 2002

heh - Vanor, If I can't update the rules myself tomorrow (when as far as I know I should finally have the time) then I will take you up on that offer and provide a list. Mainly some of the powers need reworded for clarity and the initiative needs updated.

As for the Yakuza's new powers, I am not sold on them being too weak yet but I will concede that sneaky trick is more of a holdover than anything else. The only thing that might tip my hand towards changing it would be the fact that the immunities of the honor do give them a significant advantage at times. (But personally I have thought it neat to have strategy matches where your moves begin to be more limited)

Berandor · Feb 20, 2002

Wicht said:
2. I am pleased with the speed matches and how they seem to be popular but think a 2 flag speed match might not be a good thing.

I agree.
I was counting on good fortune to win against Graydoom, hence I chose this, but 2 flag speed IS problematic.

Berandor

reiella · Feb 21, 2002

To #5 at least then you really need to update the Poison Blade entry to not say 'once per round' only and once per move instead.

Speed matches themselves are kinda neat, I perfer the standard myself still though simply as I do actually enjoy the see-sawing which a few people don't.

Oh Vanor, and honored fighters at least have alot more than just one signature style

and yakuza at least end up with 2 total by 5th tier.

I mean seriously, look at the Yakuza power selection.

It's the only path to not get a modifier bundle, and even if the powers themselves are equal. That still leaves the Yakuza behind the honored in terms of power to the rest. I do feel poison blade and mastery make a nice compliment (And Yakuza/Honored are meant to really mirror each other in terms of power progression at least, and those two powers get the same advancement). Sig Styles and Sig Locations are not equal (and the same holds for Dojo Styles v Gang Member as well).
At 6th tier, 9/50 powers are outright bared from use in a standard strategy match, so on average one out of the 5 (it evens out to 10/50 at 7th but not a big deal there). However, in itself, that doesn't actually limit the honored or light fighters at least due to masteries (And it's actual use of being used to evade sig style immunity defaults). I do feel sneaky trick and chi strike are relatively balanced (although I believe sneaky trick should have it's initiative requirement removed to prevent it from also just being sat on in strat matches for initiative sake alone). Course I had my points on the relative power scales in that other thread

.

I really do hope to be wrong about the Yakuza being rather underpowered at least relative to the honored path (Since that's supposed to be the mirror path), but I think there might have been a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the strengths of honored and yakuza from the earlier perception.

It's really odd and awkward to notice some of it however.

And again my big problem that I had while trying to make some points for the Dark Warrior at least in the committee before. I am of that path, and am doing pretty well.

Luck != Balance though

(Ask Sabaron about the MeowthPowers sometime, it's funny

).

[ Another fun add here ]
My only real suggestion and/or desire at this time is still my initial one, strike immunities all together and replace that 1in40 chance of having a second location up with a 1in40 chance of a named location showing up, and work from there. I want to hear other opinions in general too.

Why does the style > location discontinuity still exist?

[ Another Add, noticed something ]
Also as it currently stands, if a move is Poison Bladed, and then gets DT'd, the fighter can't use another Poison Blade for that round as it is still the same round... this may be intentional and would also need an exception when changing the wording of Poison Blade to allow for you to use two on a FoF.

graydoom · Feb 21, 2002

Wicht said:
1. I really don't see anything wrong per se with the dirty trick, chi strike or the current initiative set up. I think the elements of the rules involved can be worked around with good strategy.

I agree, they can be worked around and worked with quite well. My problem with them is that making them initiative deciding power seems somehwat of a kludge to me, and I think a more elegant structure could be developed.

2. I am pleased with the speed matches and how they seem to be popular but think a 2 flag speed match might not be a good thing.

Heh. Two flag matches have both disadvantages and advantages. Yes, a higher ranking fighter can bring their powers to bear more quickly, but the less flags that there are the easier it is for a figher to get lucky and win two or three in a row. Just look at my fight vs Wrath... Berandor won three in a row, and thus I lost. IMO, two flag matches work just fine. But both fighters should be aware that two flags is pretty much Sudden Death when both fighters have multi-hit powers or lots of sig styles.

3. I agree that perhaps the dojo style should not grant an immunity

*Shrug*. I think immunities create more problems than they are worth, but oh well.

4. I could see my way to replacing the Yakuza's sneaky trick with the power to change the location of any one move to any single location known by the yakuza fighter. This would be good for only 1 round in a match.

Might be a good idea. With the lack of immunities making locations inherently weaker, this might balance it out. Yakuza could become quite powerful at low tiers, though, when an honored fighter only has a FoF (usually negated by DT).

5. Contrary to what someone has said (Reiella I think), if a yakuza gets a fist of fury and 2 poison blades they should be able to stick a poison blade on each move

Ooooh. Me like

. Time to buy another Poison Blade! Mmmmmmmmm.

And finally, I apoligize for not having updated the rules yet but real life has really not been conducive for the past two weeks to the project.

No problem. Life catches up to us all at one point or another.

ok pile on now

Duly piled on

.

Wicht · Feb 21, 2002

reiella said:
To #5 at least then you really need to update the Poison Blade entry to not say 'once per round' only and once per move instead.

Let me first just say I personally like immunities as they keep a bit of the randomness in the games. I would have to run the math again but I was thinking the Yakuza had a higher chance of actually getting a 3 point move randomnly than the honor - but maybe not.

However, as to the poison blades, if you remember, the yakuza powers were done before the item powers and while I had a rough idea for the item powers, the ability of the yakuza to get a fist of fury did not enter my mind and thus the wording.

Jin Chi · Feb 21, 2002

Regarding the immunities....

I think it was Kalanyr that had the idea of making style immunity worth one LESS point against you. So a 3 point move that your opponent is immune to will yield only 2 points (not be totaly worthless).

The idea here is that two fighters with the same style will just cancel out the style advantage. They'll still score points as normal.

graydoom · Feb 21, 2002

reiella said:
[ Another Add, noticed something ]
Also as it currently stands, if a move is Poison Bladed, and then gets DT'd, the fighter can't use another Poison Blade for that round as it is still the same round... this may be intentional and would also need an exception when changing the wording of Poison Blade to allow for you to use two on a FoF.

I don't think this is intentional. For almost every purpose, the round after a DT is considered an entirely seperate round. From what I can see, everything treats the round after the DT as a different round... strategy matches, poison blade, all that stuff. So round 2a is different from round 2b... and for that matter, IMO we should just count DTed rounds normally. If round 2 is DTed, it should just go to round 3, and we shouldn't bother with all the round 2a 2b 2c stuff and the complications that can arise with that structure.

reiella · Feb 21, 2002

Hehe fair enough there. It's really a minor quirk (like the Style Immunity on items and gaining new styles).

Immunities were nice when fighters didn't tend to gain huge gobs of styles. I tend to feel they take away from the random-ness of the fight itself as they just flat out guarantee a round unless it's a middle ranked Light or Honored Fighter (or someone who spent some yen on the activatable mastery power).

Can run the math for you though if you want

.
Tier 2
Yak possibility for a 3 point move for second tier is 1in2500 (1in50 for their single style, 1in 50 for their single location).

Honored possibility for a 3 point move at second tier is 2in50 if they use their fist of fury with it, with an addition 4 in2500 chance of getting a four point move (again if they use FoF). Without Fist of Fury however, it is 0in50.

Honored fighter also always wins a round 2 in 50 (in general).

Tier 3
Yakuza posibility for a 3 point move is (1in50 for their style) and (3in50 for location) so 3in2500.

Honored possisibility for a 3 point move without FoF is (4in50 for style) and (1in100 for one of their modifier bundles to show up) so 2in2500. With Fist of Fury it goes up to 3in2500

[There is also 4 and 5 point potential that scales, I might go do that if I get around to it after I finish this fight]

They also have the possibility for 6 point moves (with FoF) (4in50 for style, 1in100 for mod, and 4in50 and 1in100 again). A rather improbable number (1in 1562500, effectively insiginficant).

Honored fighters also always win a round 4in50.

Tier 4
Yakuza possibility for a 3 point move is (1in50 for their style) and (5in50 for location) 5in2500.

Honored possibility for a 3 point move without FoF is (6in50 for style, 2in100 for modifier bundle), so 6 in 2500.

With FoF their 6 point move potential goes up to (6in50, 2in200 for mod, doubled) - 9/1562500.

Honored fighters also autowin a round (6in50)

Tier 5
Yakuza possibility for a 3 point move without Poison Blade is (2in50 for their styles) and (6in50 for location) 3 / 625.

With poison blade the yakuza can get a 3 point move (2in50+6in50) 4 out of 25 moves.

They can get a 4 point move 3 / 625 (using Poison Blade).

Honored possibility for a 3 point move without FoF or mastery is (8in50 for style, 3in100 for modifier bundle) 3/625.

With mastery, an honored fighter gets a 3 point move 3 in 100 times (modifier bundle).

With FoF alone, an honored fighter gets a 6 point move (8in50, 3in100, doubled) 9/390625.

With FoF and mastery, an honored fighters get a 6 point move (3in100 * 8in50 * 3in100) 9 in 62500.

Honored fighters also autowin 8 out of 50.

Tier 6
Yakuza's potential for a 3 point move (2in50)*(7in50) or 7 in 1250.

With poison blade, it goes up to 9 in 50.

Four point potential with Poison Blade goes is 14 in 250.

Honored Fighter at (9in50, 1 in 25) 9 in 1250.

With mastery it reduces down to 1 in 25.
With FoF and masteries potential for a 6 point move is 1 in 625.

Honored also autowin 9 out of 50 rounds.

Tier 7
Yakuza's go up to 15 in 2500, and 15 in50 with poisonblade. Four point with PB is 15 in 2500.

Honored go up to (10in50, and 1in20) 1 in 100.

With Mastery, it simplifies down to 1in20.

With FoF and masteries used, chance of getting a 6 point move is 1in40.

And honored autowin 1 out of 5 rounds.

[ doh noticed some math errors.. fixing them now ]

[ Should be fixed now... anyway, at Tier 6 and Tier 7, honored fighters have a greater chance of 3 point moves without using their other powers, At tier 4 and Tier 5, the chances are equal. At tier 2 it is higher on the sole premise of impossibility

. Err oops, Tier 3 also has a 1 in 2500 higher chance for the Yak of generating a 3 point move, which btw, is 7.5x as rare as the chance for one of the three modifiers of a green belt to show up in YB1 ]