You can now get a citation for making direct eye contact with a cop

tomBitonti · Sep 2, 2015

Morrus said:
Yeah. A night in jail for making fun of a police officer? I find that incredibly scary on a conceptual level. I'd expect that sort of thing in Russia, not in Western countries.

I imagine it's not because he was making fun of a police officer, but that he was doing so instead of simply answering the question.

The response seems overboard, though. I give some slack because the question is a part of a trick, which is to get the responder to admit to an infraction. I've heard some guidelines which say to not use this approach, but I also gather that the approach remains common.

Thx!
TomB

Janx · Sep 2, 2015

tomBitonti said:
I imagine it's not because he was making fun of a police officer, but that he was doing so instead of simply answering the question.

The response seems overboard, though. I give some slack because the question is a part of a trick, which is to get the responder to admit to an infraction. I've heard some guidelines which say to not use this approach, but I also gather that the approach remains common.

Thx!
TomB

Technically, if a lawyer was sitting next to you during the "do you know why I stopped you?" story, he might advise you to not answer or plead the 5th.

Talking to cops is dangerous, not just from being black. Anything you say may be used against you.

Ryujin · Sep 2, 2015

Lhorgrim said:
I doubt that the arrest citation listed "smart ass" as the reason somebody was taken to jail. Officers have to answer to prosecutors and judges eventually. I took quite a bit of verbal abuse from people, but in my area you still have to have a chargeable offense to lodge someone in the jail. Officers should have a thick skin. That being said, if you were a jerk to me and also had a $50 warrant for some traffic violation you forgot to pay a couple years ago, I would most certainly serve it. If you weren't a jerk I would advise you of the warrant and tell you to get it cleared up at the courthouse. If you had a warrant for something more serious I had no choice but to take you in. But, an officer that screwed over people just for being jerks wouldn't last very long. Defense attorneys would eat a guy like that for breakfast. It also raises red flags for other disciplinary issues like excessive force.

The expression used up here is, "He failed the attitude test."

Umbran said:
I have little sympathy for willful thoughtlessness or stupidity.

Cops are humans. They can only be expected to have the patience and restraint of well-trained humans, at best. Our requiring them to be super-human is kind of like requiring that our wood-frame buildings support loads like steel-framed buildings. The structure *will* fail if we do that, and it won't be the building's fault.

If you are inciting the cop for no good purpose, then you are making the world worse for those of us who may need to stand up to a cop for a real purpose. I may need to tell a cop to stick it at a moment that matters, and have him or her be patient enough to take it. If you are choosing to erode the cop's patience for no particular good end, then you're effectively hurting me and my community. If you get a ticket as a result, I'm okay with that.

Another old expression: Don't poke the bear. While an incident like the one I described could easily be construed as an abuse of power it's hard to feel sorry for someone who calls attention to himself, then actually gets said attention.

Lhorgrim · Sep 2, 2015

Janx said:
Technically, if a lawyer was sitting next to you during the "do you know why I stopped you?" story, he might advise you to not answer or plead the 5th.

Talking to cops is dangerous, not just from being black. Anything you say may be used against you.

No academy teaches the "Do you know why I stopped you" approach anymore. I know some officers still use it, but it's just laziness or falling out of practice on the modern way to do it.
What you should hear is something like "Good morning. I'm Officer Meepo with the Greyhawk police department. I stopped you because you failed to come to a complete stop at the stop sign at Merchant Street. I need to see your driver's license and proof of insurance please." I might also ask for the registration if dispatch alerted me it was expired.
If you were speeding I would usually ask if there was an emergency I needed to know about. I did run across some medical emergencies that I sent on to the hospital. We didn't do emergency escorts due to liability issues. Years ago a man was having a heart attack and his wife was rushing him to the hospital in the western part of the state. The officer didn't send them on, and instead asked a bunch of questions about why they didn't call an ambulance or something. The man died prior to getting to the hospital and after that our training started addressing how to handle medical emergencies on a traffic stop.
Side note: In KY most municipal police department's policies are written or approved by the Kentucky League of Cities, which is the insurer for local governments.

Dannyalcatraz · Sep 2, 2015

Last thing first: we recently had an incident in which a pro athlete was pulled over for speeding. He explained he was rushing to the hospital because his mother was in critical condition. Instead of letting him go with a warning or escorting the car to the destination, the officer assumed he was being jacked with, and prolonged the stop.

The athlete's mom died before he got to the hospital. The cop lost his job.

Next...

Re: the donut story: we don't know what a the reason the cop put down on the arrest paperwork, but it wasn't JUST for violating Wheaton's Law. Remember, he DID pull the smartass over for a reason. Whatever it was*, the driver's confrontational attitude moved it from possibly being a just stop & warning or stop & ticket to stop & spend a night in jail.

Don't poke the bear.

Especially when that bear is a Smokey.

* No, a lack of donuts in a car is not a violation of the Texas traffic rules.

Umbran · Sep 3, 2015

Morrus said:
Yeah. A night in jail for making fun of a police officer? I find that incredibly scary on a conceptual level. I'd expect that sort of thing in Russia, not in Western countries.

And, as Danny has noted, probably not what happened. The guy got pulled over first. Now, even with all the trouble we have with police these days, I'm still willing to bet that the majority of stops are for legitimate reasons. Not necessarily serious reasons, but legally legit - you have a broken taillight, were speeding, blew through a stop sign, or the like.

So, the cop probably already has something on you. When you are *already* facing possible citation, escalating by being a wiseacre is monumentally dumb.

Hand of Evil · Sep 3, 2015

As my father calls it, revenue enhancements, the money goes to the city/county budgets. Citation are issues based on the odds people will just pay them.

I got a ticket a number of years ago for running a red light, the cop was a half a block IN FRONT, moving in the same direction, and said they saw it in their rear view mirror! It was dark and there were trees hanging over the road blocking the light, which was the light for the lane going in the opposite direction! The judge sided with the cop. Still pisses me off.

Jhaelen · Sep 3, 2015

Janx said:
Talking to cops is dangerous, not just from being black. Anything you say may be used against you.

I'm afraid you just live in the wrong country.

Kramodlog · Sep 3, 2015

Umbran said:
I have little sympathy for willful thoughtlessness or stupidity.

Neither do I, but stupidity is not a reason to be in jail. Abuse of power should never be excused and certainly not tolerated. It is that attitude that leads to unarmed people getting shot and cops walking free.

Morrus · Sep 3, 2015

Yeah, not having sympathy for somebody and imprisoning them and depriving them of their liberty are two very different things.

But, like folks have said, there's clearly more to the story. The arrest must have been for an actual crime not mentioned here, and the smart ass remark just served to ruin his chances of being let off with a warning.

Presumably it was more than just a speeding ticket.

You can now get a citation for making direct eye contact with a cop

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