D&D 5E [GUIDE] Celestial Link Evoking Radiance Into Creation - CLERIC guide

Snof · Nov 11, 2015

Isn't the rating of Arcane domain a little harsh? It is purple, yet if you look at what you have given individual features, then it seems a little better. I would personally rate it blue. The wizards cantrips, like booming blade or green flame blade does well for a cleric who only have a single attack. Not to mention potent cantrip on top of that. You now have a mighty attack that doesn't use any of your slots. Even a mid to high levels, a cleric doesn't cast a spell every turn, and you thus have spare room for good spells that uses minor action like, spiritual weapon, or takes more time, like Prayer of Healing. The level 6 feature is also quite decent. With warcaster you also get a dangerous Opportunity attack. When it comes to the spell list, then I find it to be quite bad.

Might be a bit ironic that a cleric of arcane domain is best suited for melee combat. A bit counter intuitive in a sense.

mellored · Nov 12, 2015

Snof said:
Isn't the rating of Arcane domain a little harsh? It is purple, yet if you look at what you have given individual features, then it seems a little better. I would personally rate it blue. The wizards cantrips, like booming blade or green flame blade does well for a cleric who only have a single attack. Not to mention potent cantrip on top of that. You now have a mighty attack that doesn't use any of your slots. Even a mid to high levels, a cleric doesn't cast a spell every turn, and you thus have spare room for good spells that uses minor action like, spiritual weapon, or takes more time, like Prayer of Healing. The level 6 feature is also quite decent. With warcaster you also get a dangerous Opportunity attack. When it comes to the spell list, then I find it to be quite bad.

Might be a bit ironic that a cleric of arcane domain is best suited for melee combat. A bit counter intuitive in a sense.

I agree GFB/BB do make arcane better, but only that specific build is blue.

Still, i'll update the description.

mellored · Nov 12, 2015

updated, let me know if that works.

mellored · Nov 23, 2015

Finished with the rest of the SCAG stuff.

Kithas · Nov 23, 2015

Even without gfb and bb I think the arcane domain can be great, using shocking grasp or fire bolt you can do plenty of damage. Clerics DO have some good boomy spells too, firestorm and the like, so it's definitely not a bad choice. It's also worth mentioning that this is the best way to get all 3 types of spells (nature, divine, arcane) under one spell casting ability(wis) and with only 2 classes.

mellored · Nov 23, 2015

Kithas said:
Even without gfb and bb I think the arcane domain can be great, using shocking grasp or fire bolt you can do plenty of damage. Clerics DO have some good boomy spells too, firestorm and the like, so it's definitely not a bad choice. It's also worth mentioning that this is the best way to get all 3 types of spells (nature, divine, arcane) under one spell casting ability(wis) and with only 2 classes.

The main issue with arcana is their Channel Divinity.

That's a 1-3x per short rest, of not maximizing call lighting, or not restoring HP, or not reading someone's thoughts and planting a suggestion. The other features are decent, but it's lot of power to miss out on.

Unless your actually dealing with those sorts of creatures on a regular basis. Then it's pretty good.

Kithas · Nov 23, 2015

yeah losing the CD is a big deal I agree. I much prefer tempest myself(half sorc).

One small note on Hill Dwarf, I agree it's the best race for clerics, another thing it adds that you didn't mention is the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down, meaning you don't need a 13/15 in str.

On another note, as much as you push Con(and I completely agree it's super important) I'm curious as to why the tough feat is so low on your list. +2 health per level is equivalent of a +4 in con. Also this let's you have health like someone with a 24 in con since it doesn't interact with the 20 cap. I would say you should cap your Con first but this would definitely be a close second if survivability is your goal. I would definitely rate this above Heavy armor master.

In regard to savage attacker; Since clerics only have one attack, and SA only works once per turn this actually works %age wise better than on classes with multiple attacks. It may be a good idea for a war cleric(esp with 2+levels in paladin), or nature if going melee. Savage attacker is generally very underrated imo, it only gives you about a .4-.6 per die higher average damage but it makes you have about a 70% chance to have a good damage roll(above average on each die) and lowers your bad rolls to 20-30%, and truly awful rolls are near impossible with the rerolls. Still not amazing but definitely not the worst choice. War cleric/Paladin with this is actually very very good.

In my opinion there is no reason a cleric cannot be a melee tank. They get heavy armor and shields most of the time and your hp can definitely be good enough to hang with fighters and barbarians, vs a barbarian you only have ~40 less health all else equal, ~20 for fighters. So the 2 things that matter to tanking, AC and Health, you are easily on par with. Also things like Spirit Guardians and Thunderwave and excessive healing make you much more valuable as a target, whereas they might just ignore the fighter/barb and go for the squishies.

Another note from my observations. I've played a tempest cleric up til level 5(only switched because the dm and I agreed it would be better for the party) and I plan on playing one again now that storm sorc is official. Clerics, tempest and light atleast, can definitely be competent blasters, there aren't many options as far as spells go(multi into sorc does help with this), but you have the big ones, thunderwave, shatter and call lightning. All of these can be cast with higher slots! An 8th level thunderwave maximized is incredibly devastating(64/32 damage to everything in a 15' cube is nuts) It's also worth mentioning that thunderbolt strike doesn't care where the lightning damage came from, your divine strike now knocks people 10' back, your sorc spells now move people etc. For Wrath of the Storm, 2d8 as a reaction(and push 10' after lvl 6) is definitely good enough late into the game, before level 11 (and then only paladins) no one else can use a reaction to hit that hard, and for an easy trigger too. Opp attacks can at most hit for 2d6+5, you hit for 2d8, definitely not a waste. In your CD at level 10 example, thunderwave maxed is a 48/24(6d8s), outdamaging everything on that list.
All of that said I still don't see much value in cleric after level 9, Intervention is situational at best, and none of the 17 abilities seem worth it. (Fly is a lvl 3 spell that outclasses mine...)

Something else worth mentioning, if you are interested in multiclassing, is the synergy between Thunderbolt Strike and Heart of the Storm(storm cleric lvl 6). Basically this means that every time you cast a spell that does thunder or lighting of lvl1+ you get to add half your sorc level to damage(in aoe around you) and push those damaged by that 10' away from you, no save, no to hit, no questions asked. You also get to choose who you hit, so you can leave your allies out, or you can use it to reposition an ally, shoving him 10' without hurting too badly(3-10 damage) and no opp attacks for him. I plan on playing a Storm sorc/Temp cleric in an upcoming campaign as a mage/tank and am definitely looking forward to it.

Overall I really like your guides and respect your opinions when I see your posts.
sorry for massive wall of text <.<

mellored · Nov 23, 2015

Kithas said:
One small note on Hill Dwarf, I agree it's the best race for clerics, another thing it adds that you didn't mention is the fact that heavy armor doesn't slow you down, meaning you don't need a 13/15 in str.

Good point. I will mention that.

On another note, as much as you push Con(and I completely agree it's super important) I'm curious as to why the tough feat is so low on your list. +2 health per level is equivalent of a +4 in con.

Con gives you +1 both to max HP, and to each HD you spend, so it's almost +2 to HP. But it also boosts your Con saves, meaning your less likely to lose bless.

Also this let's you have health like someone with a 24 in con since it doesn't interact with the 20 cap. I would say you should cap your Con first but this would definitely be a close second if survivability is your goal. I would definitely rate this above Heavy armor master.

At level 5, you need to get hit 4 times in a day for heavy armor to beat the HP from toughness. And again, concentration checks. Also +1 Str.

Though at level 20, you need to be hit 14 times to match toughness's HP. So if your looking to pick up your last feat, then yea.

In regard to savage attacker; Since clerics only have one attack, and SA only works once per turn this actually works %age wise better than on classes with multiple attacks. It may be a good idea for a war cleric(esp with 2+levels in paladin), or nature if going melee. Savage attacker is generally very underrated imo, it only gives you about a .4-.6 per die higher average damage but it makes you have about a 70% chance to have a good damage roll(above average on each die) and lowers your bad rolls to 20-30%, and truly awful rolls are near impossible with the rerolls. Still not amazing but definitely not the worst choice. War cleric/Paladin with this is actually very very good.

You can only reroll the weapons die, not the bonus damage.

So assuming a shield, 1d8 roll twice gives +1.31 damage. Worse then +2 Str/Dex, which also gives you +to hit and other stuff.

In my opinion there is no reason a cleric cannot be a melee tank.

Yes.
Though you need to get sentinal or warcaster, otherwise you arn't much of a threat.

Clerics, tempest and light atleast, can definitely be competent blasters, there aren't many options as far as spells go(multi into sorc does help with this), but you have the big ones, thunderwave, shatter and call lightning.

Yup.

It's also worth mentioning that thunderbolt strike doesn't care where the lightning damage came from, your divine strike now knocks people 10' back

Thunderbolt strike requires lighting. Divine strike is thunder.

Doesn't mix.

All of that said I still don't see much value in cleric after level 9, Intervention is situational at best, and none of the 17 abilities seem worth it. (Fly is a lvl 3 spell that outclasses mine...)

I agree. Cleric's don't have the strongest endgame.

I plan on playing a Storm sorc/Temp cleric in an upcoming campaign as a mage/tank and am definitely looking forward to it.

The main issue is the Wis/Cha split.

But otherwise they should mesh well.

Overall I really like your guides and respect your opinions when I see your posts.
sorry for massive wall of text <.<

I don't mind.

You don't get good at things unless you're willing to fix your mistakes.

mellored · Nov 23, 2015

And lighting lure + thunderbolt strike = pull -> push.

If you team with someone who has good zones, such as cloud of daggers.

Kithas · Nov 23, 2015

mellored said:
Con gives you +1 both to max HP, and to each HD you spend, so it's almost +2 to HP. But it also boosts your Con saves, meaning your less likely to lose bless.

I agree that +2con>tough. The -3 only works on BPS damage, whereas the hp will work on everything. It also requires you to use heavy armor, which not all clerics are proficient in. And the point in str is for the most part wasted :/

mellored said:
You can only reroll the weapons die, not the bonus damage.

Ah, my phb isn't in front of me, I remembered it being able to reroll damage for one weapon attack.

mellored said:
Though you need to get sentinal or warcaster, otherwise you arn't much of a threat.

Massive heals and scary aoe effects/damage should be enough to make the bad guys hesitant to ignore you. Honestly adding 1 reaction that may not even out-damage wrath of the storm doesn't seem like it makes me more of a threat, also with proficiency in con saves after level 11(+4 proficiency, +5 con) you have to take 22+ damage to even have to roll to keep your concentration(1's arent auto-fail on saves), and if you do have to roll it will be an easy pass. The rest of warcaster is really lackluster.

mellored said:
Thunderbolt strike requires lighting. Divine strike is thunder.

Doesn't mix.

Ah right, I always forget that you don't get to pick like with Wrath. Either way Shocking Grasp is better

mellored said:
The main issue is the Wis/Cha split.

But otherwise they should mesh well.

Since the only 2 spells that are cleric-only and have a dc/to hit roll are call lightning and destructive wave, both of which are situational(mass groups and high ceilings) I think having a +2/3 in wis should be fine, focusing more on con/cha.

mellored said:
And lighting lure + thunderbolt strike = pull -> push.

If you team with someone who has good zones, such as cloud of daggers.

That is another fun one, shocking grasp, thunderclap, and lightning lure are definitely going to be my bread and butter.
Speaking of which, I could just use my own cloud of daggers...