Follow up discussion,etc, from the WotC thread
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Originally posted by pukunui:
On a somewhat related note, at first I thought it was odd that Aerisi would tolerate the presence of several monsters that prey on her followers, but then I got to the part where it says she views
"ordinary mortals as expendable, weak-willed toys ...". Clearly, any cultist who gets himself killed by one of the monsters isn't worthy of his place in the cult.
Originally posted by abs1nth:
pukunui wrote
.s. Is anyone else annoyed by Rich's continued use of "lays" instead of "lies"? Eg.
"a lost dwarven city lays in ruins ..." and
"a platinum goblet ... lays on the moat's floor."
I was pondering whether that was some kind of olden use of the word but apparently, according to
grammar girl (lol) it's just wrong.
Originally posted by pukunui:
abs1nth wrote:
pukunui wrote
.s. Is anyone else annoyed by Rich's continued use of "lays" instead of "lies"? Eg.
"a lost dwarven city lays in ruins ..." and
"a platinum goblet ... lays on the moat's floor."
I was pondering whether that was some kind of olden use of the word but apparently, according to
grammar girl (lol) it's just wrong.
Indeed. It's one of my internal grammarian's pet peeves. It just
sounds wrong to me.
Originally posted by Echamil:
To be honest? I really don't pay to much heed to the discrepencies within the text versus images. As an intern Graphic Artist, I can honestly say that past the initial sketching, there is little communication between the Artist and the Writers in a case like a Published Adventure.
Once the Director or Supervisor gives his Okay to an initial sketch, (done on a rough draft from the editorial crew), the team goes ahead with the various polishing ups of the art. During that time, the Editorial Team can go through any number of drafts, which usually results in the artwork not being 100% to the description. It happens.
As a Dungeon Master, you should expect that, that work with it, alter it a little instead of directly reading from the text. Make notes and fix things for your own campaign.
As far as the rest of the stuff you pointed out, I say the same thing. Don't just read it word by word. Correct what you feels needs to be corrected.
When I DM a published adventure, before my group even meets, I spend a good 2 weeks reading the adventure cover to cover numerous times. If I have the time, I run a Multi-NPC Control Party through it, using my experience as a Player and as a DM to see what I feel may need changed. I don't always get the chance to do that, so I toss in a single NPC, scale down the battles appropriately and let him handle the key parts that need corrected.
Originally posted by pukunui:
You're right. Some of the things I've listed are fairly trivial and shouldn't be too difficult to fix. Nevertheless, I feel they are worth noting, especially for new DMs for whom
Princes might be their first adventure. (Note, also, that we have had similar threads here on the forums for the Lost Mine(x) and Tyranny of Dragons(x) modules, so I am merely continuing the tradition here ...)
The most glaring issues I've found so far are the positioning discrepancies on the various maps and the issue with Aerisi summoning the djinni in the air temple. Those are things for which we can collectively brainstorm solutions.
Originally posted by MonsterEnvy:
pukunui wrote:
- Air Temple - Djinni Horn: The text on page 83 not only establishes that Ahtayir can only be summoned once every 101 years and then only to perform a single task but also that Aerisi has already tasked him with rebuilding the palace zone. With that in mind, how is it that she is able to summon him again to come to her aid in the throne room? This seems like the biggest error I've come across so far.
- Water Temple - Sea Creatures: Are we to assume that the water cultists have used magic to enable the giant octopus and Eyon's shark to survive in fresh water?
First on the Djinni Horn. He can only be summoned every 101 years to preform a single task. Once he completes the task he is free to do as he wants. The reason Aerisi can summon him to aid her in the throne room is because he has not finished rebuilding the palace. He has to do one task it does not matter what it is, if he has not finished the task then it makes sense he can be ordered to do a diffrent one.
It's more or less pointed out in his details. He will point the way to Aerisi because he hopes she will summon him to defend her as that will be much quicker and easier to complete then rebuilding the palace.
On the Water Temple. Maybe the water is salt water, maybe this is not a big issue, maybe it's a fresh water shark and Octopus that exist in the forgotten realms. Aka don't overthink this.
Originally posted by pukunui:
MonsterEnvy wrote:First on the Djinni Horn. He can only be summoned every 101 years to preform a single task. Once he completes the task he is free to do as he wants. The reason Aerisi can summon him to aid her in the throne room is because he has not finished rebuilding the palace. He has to do one task it does not matter what it is, if he has not finished the task then it makes sense he can be ordered to do a diffrent one.
It's more or less pointed out in his details. He will point the way to Aerisi because he hopes she will summon him to defend her as that will be much quicker and easier to complete then rebuilding the palace.
That's not how I read it initially but you could be right.
On the Water Temple. Maybe the water is salt water, maybe this is not a big issue, maybe it's a fresh water shark and Octopus that exist in the forgotten realms. Aka don't overthink this.
I know. I'm just being thorough.
Originally posted by Echamil:
I know you were Puku. I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it.
I hear it a lot though at my LGS. I hear loads of people, (even some employees), complain about the product. "Oh, this part wasn't written right.." "Oh, this description doesn't match the map.."
It makes me want to shake people by the shoulders and say "Published Adventures are a base. They are meant to be used to inspire your players into an adventure. You're meant to mess around with it at certain points. If you don't like it, correct it. You're a damn DM for Oghma's Sake."
As I said, I intern for a company that publishes adventures. As I am under a Non-Disclosure Agreement, I am unable to say specifically which company I work for or anything related to the company's products.
What I can say though, is that there is constantly a lack of communication, (along with a piss-poor editorial staff)--and the result is that some pieces are incorrect. Unfortunately, it can't be blamed on the Play-testers like a certain company tried to do in 2012, because editining happens up till a good week before publishing.
Like I said, I read through the adventure, and I run a single-NPC through it with scaled down battles. It helps.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Echamil wrote:I know you were Puku. I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it.
Thanks. I didn't think you were being a jerk. Just unintentionally condescending perhaps. I, too, am a graphic designer. I'm well aware of how and why mistakes creep into published material. I'm not particularly concerned with that. I'm merely compiling a catalogue of the things that I feel need to be addressed - and I'm sharing that list here in case anyone else finds it helpful and so we, as a community, can brainstorm solutions together.
When I'm finished, I intend to see if the Sasquatch guys will provide some feedback, much like Steven Winter of Kobold Press did in the
Hoard of the Dragon Queen errors thread.
Originally posted by Hrall:
abs1nth wrote:
pukunui wrote
.s. Is anyone else annoyed by Rich's continued use of "lays" instead of "lies"? Eg.
"a lost dwarven city lays in ruins ..." and
"a platinum goblet ... lays on the moat's floor."
I was pondering whether that was some kind of olden use of the word but apparently, according to
grammar girl (lol) it's just wrong.
My friend says its the middle english use of the word in an effort to give the text a midieval sound. Note I said effort. My friend has a Doctorate in Midieval Lit so I tend to trust him on such things. However, a qucik google seems to back him up
[SIZE=1.17em]
Etymology 1[SIZE=small][edit][/size][/SIZE]
From Middle English layen, leggen, from Old English lecgan (“to lay”), from Proto-Germanic *lagjaną (“to lay”), causative form of Proto-Germanic *ligjaną, *legjaną (“to lie, recline”), from Proto-Indo-European *legʰ- (“to lie, recline”). Cognate with West Frisian lizze (“to lay, to lie”), Dutch leggen (“to lay”), German legen (“to lay”), Norwegian ligge (“to lay”), Swedish lägga (“to lay”), Icelandic leggja (“to lay”), Albanian lag (“troop, band, war encampment”).
Verb[SIZE=small][edit][/size]
lay (third-person singular simple present lays, present participle laying, simple past and past participle laid)
- (transitive) To place down in a position of rest, or in a horizontal position. [SIZE=0.65em] [quotations ▼][/SIZE][UNKNOWN=dl]: [UNKNOWN=dd]: to lay a book on the table; to lay a body in the grave
[UNKNOWN=dd]: A shower of rain lays the dust.s
Originally posted by pukunui:
Yes, you can lay the goblet on the floor, but it doesn't lay there by itself. It lies there.
Originally posted by Orethalion:
pukunui wrote:Yes, you can lay the goblet on the floor, but it doesn't lay there by itself. It lies there.
Can't trust a word those goblets say!
Originally posted by HobbitFan:
One I noticed is that at Feathergale Spire, the NPC you are supposed to save (Savra Belabranta) invites you to a feast there at the tower once you meet her there. It's to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Feathergale Society. Yet the cultists are only supposed to have been in the keeps and causing problems for about 6 months. Now, this may not be an outright error. Thurl Merosska could have formed the Feathergale Society years ago and only recently joined up with the Aerisi and the other cultists leaders. The thing is, the adventure should have been alot clearer on this. It's not. That's a problem and once editors and readers/playtesters should have pointed out to Sasquatch.
Originally posted by MonsterEnvy:
HobbitFan wrote:One I noticed is that at Feathergale Spire, the NPC you are supposed to save (Savra Belabranta) invites you to a feast there at the tower once you meet her there. It's to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the Feathergale Society. Yet the cultists are only supposed to have been in the keeps and causing problems for about 6 months. Now, this may not be an outright error. Thurl Merosska could have formed the Feathergale Society years ago and only recently joined up with the Aerisi and the other cultists leaders. The thing is, the adventure should have been alot clearer on this. It's not. That's a problem and once editors and readers/playtesters should have pointed out to Sasquatch.
It could just as easily be a lie. It's not somthing that needs to be corrected. Thurl has been noted in his statblock to have been a Servent of Yan-C-Bin for a while before joining up with Aerisi.
Originally posted by pukunui:
It could also be the truth. The society may have been kicking around Waterdeep for most of that time before relocating to the Sumber Hills six months prior.
Originally posted by pukunui:
I've just gotten up to the Howling Caves. I was under the impression that the whole thing would be the "air node", but it sounds like only areas N15-19 are (since N14 is the "Air Node's Doorstep"). Am I reading that correctly?
EDIT: Also, are the PCs expected to close all the nodes even if they've previously defeated the associated prophet/cult? It seems that way, but it isn't entirely clear to me. Perhaps the first time a PC takes hold of one of the elemental weapons (if they get it in the temple or the fane rather than the node), they get a brief vision of the node and feel a slight tug in that direction? If they get the weapon in the node itself, perhaps they feel an urge to toss it into the portal? Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure how to telegraph that to the players.
Originally posted by Designbot:
Chapter 4
Temple of Black Earth - Screaming Statues: The text says Marlos flees to area B23—this should be area B22.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Designbot wrote:Chapter 4
Temple of Black Earth - Screaming Statues: The text says Marlos flees to area B23—this should be area B22.
Good catch. That one perplexed me too, and I thought maybe they were just saying that he flees to area B23 via his escape route, but I think you're right. It should be B22 then bye-bye!
Originally posted by HobbitFan:
I've got one but I think it's just a typo. On page 48 under Spyglass Knifepoint Gully is given the (area C3) notation when I think that should be V3 (see map page 51). C3 is a room in another area on another map.
Originally posted by pukunui:
HobbitFan wrote:I've got one but I think it's just a typo. On page 48 under Spyglass Knifepoint Gully is given the (area C3) notation when I think that should be V3 (see map page 51). C3 is a room in another area on another map.
Good spotting! I'll add that to the list.
By the way, I've reorganized the list into "Map Issues", "Text Errors" and "Discrepancies". The former two are actual issues with the placement of things on the maps and errors in the text, while the latter is just relatively minor stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Originally posted by Designbot:
Earth Temple - East Guardroom: There are five duergar, but it says two are posted at the arrow slits and "the other two" defend the entrance.
Earth Temple - Gatewarden's Quarters: A burrowshark, a Black Earth guard, and 4 cultists occupy the room, at any given time 1d4 cultists are "sacked out in their bunks," and "at least two of the residents are awake even in the middle of the night." Actually, I think this one works out, but it took a while for me to get it.
Originally posted by Designbot:
Temple of Eternal Flame - Fire Temple: The alcove & altar are described as being on the west wall, but drawn on the east wall.
Originally posted by Designbot:
Fane of the Eye - Worm's Stair: It's not clear how the map corresponds to the description of F1 and F2. Is F1 the bottom of the worm, or is the staircase leading northwest supposed to be part of it? Is that ropy thing a spinal column?
Fane of the Eye - Hall of Battle: There are "a dozen dead warriors, clearly of the earth and water cults." Later, the corpses "include air cultists, earth cultists, and a pair of fire cultists." A sentence later, there are clothes for "five air cultist disguises, four earth cultist disguises, and one fire cultist disguise."
Originally posted by Branr:
One thing I noticed was on page 31, the encounter tables list, under Fire Cult Raiders and Fire Cult War Band, Eternal Flame warriors. This creature is not listed in the book. Someone suggested that it is meant to be the Eternal Flame Guardian, but that leaves a hole, since each cult has a 1/8 to 1/2 CR "minion" creature except for the Eternal Flame, and the Guardian is a CR2 creature, a bit too much to be a minion.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Designbot wrote:Earth Temple - East Guardroom: There are five duergar, but it says two are posted at the arrow slits and "the other two" defend the entrance.
Good catch. I've added that one to the list.
Earth Temple - Gatewarden's Quarters: A burrowshark, a Black Earth guard, and 4 cultists occupy the room, at any given time 1d4 cultists are "sacked out in their bunks," and "at least two of the residents are awake even in the middle of the night." Actually, I think this one works out, but it took a while for me to get it.
I agree that it could be a little unclear but ultimately works out all right.
Designbot wrote:Temple of Eternal Flame - Fire Temple: The alcove & altar are described as being on the west wall, but drawn on the east wall.
Another good catch.
Designbot wrote:Fane of the Eye - Worm's Stair: It's not clear how the map corresponds to the description of F1 and F2. Is F1 the bottom of the worm, or is the staircase leading northwest supposed to be part of it? Is that ropy thing a spinal column?
I assumed it was the tail of the worm. I'd say that F1 is where the shaft created by the skeletal worm emerges into the Fane. Part of the worm then continues northwest to the hole that leads to the Howling Caves.
Fane of the Eye - Hall of Battle: There are "a dozen dead warriors, clearly of the earth and water cults." Later, the corpses "include air cultists, earth cultists, and a pair of fire cultists." A sentence later, there are clothes for "five air cultist disguises, four earth cultist disguises, and one fire cultist disguise."
I guess maybe the fire cultists aren't that obvious and only one has a salvageable uniform?
Branr wrote:One thing I noticed was on page 31, the encounter tables list, under Fire Cult Raiders and Fire Cult War Band, Eternal Flame warriors. This creature is not listed in the book. Someone suggested that it is meant to be the Eternal Flame Guardian, but that leaves a hole, since each cult has a 1/8 to 1/2 CR "minion" creature except for the Eternal Flame, and the Guardian is a CR2 creature, a bit too much to be a minion.
Good catch. The fire cult doesn't appear to have any minions.
Originally posted by Designbot:
The level of the water in The Plunging Torrents is hard to visualize consistently—for instance, at P4, the Temple Entrance, "the water fills the cavern to within 2 feet of the ceiling," presumably covering the plaza, doors, portico, and pediment. (So the kuo-toa are kneeling on the ground underwater?)
But through the doors, in the Shrine of Yngukulub, the stairs appear to immediately ascend to a landing "20 feet above water level" where a block of stone serves as an altar. Is the interior of the temple 20+ feet taller than the exterior? Adding to the confusion, something like an altar is drawn halfway up the stairs, while the broad platform at the top of the stairs appears empty.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Yeah, that bit was kinda confusing for me too.
Originally posted by moebius359:
Not sure if anone caught this...planning the transition from Lost Mines to Princes. Page 17 states distance from Phandalin to Triboar is 225 miles. Page 36 states that most direct route to Neverwinter " is to head west along Triboar trail to the tiny town of Phandalin ( about 140 miles)The second description is more in line with the Lost Mine map scale. I had two riding days (48 m/d) to Conyberry, so about two and half to Triboar ( 125-140 miles)
Originally posted by pukunui:
moebius359 wrote: Not sure if anone caught this...planning the transition from Lost Mines to Princes. Page 17 states distance from Phandalin to Triboar is 225 miles. Page 36 states that most direct route to Neverwinter " is to head west along Triboar trail to the tiny town of Phandalin ( about 140 miles) The second description is more in line with the Lost Mine map scale. I had two riding days (48 m/d) to Conyberry, so about two and half to Triboar ( 125-140 miles)
I hadn't checked the distance. What had caught me about that is that Phandalin is technically off the trail, so someone traveling from Triboar to Neverwinter wouldn't necessarily stop there. Anyway, I just checked my old
Forgotten Realms Atlas, and the distance looks to be about 140 miles there too.
EDIT: By the way, I've finished reading all the adventure material. I'm up to the appendices now. Not sure I'll bother checking the statblocks for math errors, but if anything jumps out at me, I'll note it here.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Something that isn't clear to me about the prophets' lair actions is their ability to cast a spell with concentration using their lair action. The text talks about them being unable to use another lair action while concentrating on a lair action spell, but is the idea that this counts as an extra concentration spell? Can they cast another spell requiring concentration at the same time without losing the one they cast as a lair action, or are they still limited to only one concentration spell at a time like normal?
Originally posted by FFSAA:
pukunui wrote:Something that isn't clear to me about the prophets' lair actions is their ability to cast a spell with concentration using their lair action. The text talks about them being unable to use another lair action while concentrating on a lair action spell, but is the idea that this counts as an extra concentration spell? Can they cast another spell requiring concentration at the same time without losing the one they cast as a lair action, or are they still limited to only one concentration spell at a time like normal?
You can end a concentration spell at any time, no action required. I don't see this letting them have 2 concentration spells up at once.
Originally posted by pukunui:
FFSAA wrote:You can end a concentration spell at any time, no action required. I don't see this letting them have 2 concentration spells up at once.
Seems kinda weak as a lair action then. It lets them cast a spell for free, but if it's a concentration spell, they've got to give up any subsequent lair actions in order to keep it going. I feel like, at the very least, they ought to be getting that concentration "slot" for free too. But whatever. I'm not too fussed about it.
Originally posted by caridhor:
My only issue with PoA is that the physical product I received is a raging POS. There is glue everywhere, the pages are stuck together and the cover is warped. other than that, its pretty good.
Originally posted by pukunui:
caridhor wrote:My only issue with PoA is that the physical product I received is a raging POS. There is glue everywhere, the pages are stuck together and the cover is warped. other than that, its pretty good.
Mine had a bit of glue on the bottom of the last few pages. I had to carefully separate them a few times before they stopped sticking together. As for the warped cover, you can press it flat again by leaving something really heavy on top of it for a while (like an improvised book press).
Originally posted by Ramzour:
Pukunui, great thread! I haven't gotten to this one yet (we're still in the the Tyranny of Dragons), but I'll definitely reference this later! Maybe we can get some feedback from the authors like we did in the last one. Also, you should put this link in your sig.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Ramzour wrote
ukunui, great thread! I haven't gotten to this one yet (we're still in the the Tyranny of Dragons), but I'll definitely reference this later! Maybe we can get some feedback from the authors like we did in the last one. Also, you should put this link in your sig.
I have sent Sasquatch the link.
Originally posted by GrendelDave:
On page 115, Saving the Delegates:
>
Teresiel is in the Weeping Colossus (area W17), along with her pouch of magical seeds.
There is no area W17. After scouring all of chapter 5, I don't even see any mention of Teresiel at all.
Methinks a paragraph got cut and never pasted.
Originally posted by HobbitFan:
Oreioth (pg. 152) is described as having a "shaved head" yet the illustration on pg. 210 shows him with a full head of hair.
Originally posted by pukunui:
GrendelDave wrote:On page 115, Saving the Delegates:
>Teresiel is in the Weeping Colossus (area W17), along with her pouch of magical seeds.
There is no area W17. After scouring all of chapter 5, I don't even see any mention of Teresiel at all.
Methinks a paragraph got cut and never pasted.
Oops. That's quite a glaring omission. I'd put her in the prison (area W6).
HobbitFan wrote:Oreioth (pg. 152) is described as having a "shaved head" yet the illustration on pg. 210 shows him with a full head of hair.
Good catch!
Originally posted by Designbot:
Some of the descriptions seem like they would make more sense if the scale of the Dessarin Valley map was 1 mile per hex.
I also noticed that the location of the Shallow Graves on the map is very odd. According to page 40, the earth cultists skirmished with air cultists on their way back to Sacred Stone Monastery from the River Dessarin. But the graves are over 10 miles southwest of Sacred Stone Monastery, not on the route at all. There would be no reason for the delegation to be there.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Yes, I noticed that too. The only thing I could think of it to explain it away was that the earth cultists deliberately buried the bodies out of the way to hide the evidence, as it were. If they'd buried them by the ambush site, it would've been too obvious.
Originally posted by Designbot:
Vizeran DeVir: Page 7 says he returned to the Fane of the Eye "a few years ago," created the elemental weapons, and left them on an altar where they were found "within the last few months." But on page 180, the Dark Lady says Vizeran DeVir forged the elemental weapons "centuries ago." He's not mentioned anywhere else (except for a sketch in the Afterword).
Originally posted by pukunui:
Designbot wrote:Vizeran DeVir: Page 7 says he returned to the Fane of the Eye "a few years ago," created the elemental weapons, and left them on an altar where they were found "within the last few months." But on page 180, the Dark Lady says Vizeran DeVir forged the elemental weapons "centuries ago." He's not mentioned anywhere else (except for a sketch in the Afterword).
I missed that one. Rich Baker sure does love the word "few", doesn't he?
Still, I don't suppose this one really matters in the grand scheme of things. What's a few years, give or take a century or two?
Originally posted by Webster:
My only problem is yet another "Save the world" adventure. We just saved the world from Tiamat, and now we have to save it again? We should have let the dragon queen take over and let her deal with the elemental princes.
Originally posted by pukunui:
Webster wrote:My only problem is yet another "Save the world" adventure. We just saved the world from Tiamat, and now we have to save it again? We should have let the dragon queen take over and let her deal with the elemental princes.
I dunno. I get less of a sense that you're saving the *world* rather than just the Dessarin Valley and maybe a good bit of the Sword Coast too. Maybe *eventually* the world but an archomental running freely throughout the Realms wouldn't have as immediately devastating an effect as a god would (especially since Tiamat would be wholly in the Realms - not just projecting herself via an avatar - and the other gods would be more or less unable to directly intervene thanks to Ao's latest non-intervention policy).
Originally posted by Designbot:
Regarding map scale…
I've aligned the Princes of the Apocalypse Dessarin Valley map with Mike Schley's other maps for Lost Mine of Phandelver and Scourge of the Sword Coast.
The maps line up great—if the Dessarin Valley hexes represent ~4.25 miles each instead of 10.
On Twitter, Mike Schley indicates that he raised this issue, but the scale was made to WotC's specifications.
I also attempted to
map the path of the delegation here—you can see that the path of the earth cult to the monastery doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and Bruldenthar was carrying a whole lot of books!
Originally posted by pukunui:
Cool. Thanks for doing that! That would solve a number of the "a few miles away" issues.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I do recall finding that the scale for the
Scourge of the Sword Coast map was a bit off. There wasn't quite enough distance between Waterdeep and Daggerford as there is on older maps. So maybe the scale isn't exactly right on all the maps, not just the
Princes map?
Originally posted by Designbot:
pukunui wrote:Cool. Thanks for doing that! That would solve a number of the "a few miles away" issues.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I do recall finding that the scale for the Scourge of the Sword Coast map was a bit off. There wasn't quite enough distance between Waterdeep and Daggerford as there is on older maps. So maybe the scale isn't exactly right on all the maps, not just the Princes map?
Sounds like the scale in
Princes of the Apocalypse may be the new/old standard, and it's
Lost Mine of Phandelver and
Scourge of the Sword Coast that are off:
https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/593628709526974464
@ChrisPerkinsDnD wrote:In studying older maps, we've become aware of "scale drift" that has occurred over the years. We're still refining.
Maybe it changed during development, which could account for some of the discrepancies.
Originally posted by Devilbass:
I don't think this has been mentioned, and I didn't spot it in the OP which I believe pukunui has been updating with time.
Sacred Stone Monastery - Trapped Stairs: It states that characters on the stairs when the lever is activated must make a dexterity saving throw, though does not specify a DC for said saving throw. Personally, I will probably make it DC 15.
Originally posted by Devilbass:
So I've been working to determine what CR Ghald should actually be using the DMG guidelines.
Defensive CR (5)
Ghald's 102 hit points put him at a defensive CR of 3, and he does not have resistances and such to increase his efffective HP. His AC of 15 however, puts him up from a CR 3 to 4. Additionally, he has four saving throw proficiencies, thus increasing his effective AC by 2, and once more bumping up his CR, making his final defensive CR 5.
Offensive CR (7 or 8)
Ghald is capable of dealing oodles of damage, especially in a surprise round. In calculating three rounds worth of damage, I'm assuming Ghald surprises a foe. The wording of his
assassinate ability suggests that all attacks that hit are crits, not just one. One of these attacks will also be a sneak attack (a CRAZY first round of damage!).
Round 1
Bite crit: 14 (4d4+4)
Shortsword crit: 18 (4d6+4) (x2)
Sneack Attack crit: 28 (8d6)
Total damage: 78
Rounds 2 and 3
Bite: 9 (2d4+4)
Shortsword: 11 (2d6+4) (x2)
Total Damage: 31
Damage Output = [78 + 2(31)]/3 = 140/3 = 47
This damage output puts Ghald at offensive CR 7. At CR 7, his attack bonus should be roughly +6, and saves he forces on others should be at a DC of roughly 15. His +7 to attack and DC 15 grapple do not alter his offensive CR.
For those wondering, if Ghald gets a sneak attack on two turns, or every turn, his offensive CR increases to 8. This would make his overal CR 6.5, rounding up or down as would be appropriate. Personally, I don't think a sneak attack every round is likely. I suppose it is pretty likely that he will get two sneak attacks Ghald could get a second one off easily if one round is spent grappling (still dealing damage, but much less), but the extra sneak attack damage would be offset by the loss of multiattack damage, so it doesn't really increase his offensive CR.
Total CR (6 or 7)
So Ghald has a defensive CR of 5, and an offensive CR of 7, maybe 8. Making his total CR = (5 + 7)/2 = 6, or (5 + 8)/2 = 7
Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Am I missing something?
Originally posted by FFSAA:
Webster wrote:My only problem is yet another "Save the world" adventure. We just saved the world from Tiamat, and now we have to save it again? We should have let the dragon queen take over and let her deal with the elemental princes.
Scarlette: "It's a very common condition among heroes, sir. They often feel that it's not worth getting up unless they're going to save the universe."
Everyone is always re-inventing the atomic alarm clock.
Originally posted by FFSAA:
Devilbass wrote:So I've been working to determine what CR Ghald should actually be using the DMG guidelines.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Am I missing something?
Bulette is sort of a go-to for CR 5s and his numbers look pretty comparable. The bullette's deadly leap does lots of damage like sneak does, although spread out. The regular attacks for both do similar damage but a crit from the bullette can potentially do 100 damage which is up there with his surprise round damage.
Originally posted by Devilbass:
FFSAA wrote:Bulette is sort of a go-to for CR 5s and his numbers look pretty comparable. The bullette's deadly leap does lots of damage like sneak does, although spread out. The regular attacks for both do similar damage but a crit from the bullette can potentially do 100 damage which is up there with his surprise round damage.
You're right that their stats are similar, but still I think Ghald is actually noticably tougher than the bulette (one of my favorite monsters). The only serious edge the bulette has over Ghald is AC, which is 2 points higher. Even when you double the damage of the Deadly Leap ability (assuming two targets are struck, and it is used once), it's damage over three rounds only puts it at offensive CR 5,
maybe CR 6. What really puts Ghald head and shoulders above the bulette in respect to damage are his assassinate and sneak attack abilities.
All that being said, I think Ghald should probably be the CR 7 listed in his stat block (and the bulette CR 5).
Originally posted by pukunui:
Designbot wrote:Sounds like the scale in
Princes of the Apocalypse may be the new/old standard, and it's
Lost Mine of Phandelver and
Scourge of the Sword Coast that are off:
https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/593628709526974464
@ChrisPerkinsDnD wrote:In studying older maps, we've become aware of "scale drift" that has occurred over the years. We're still refining.
Maybe it changed during development, which could account for some of the discrepancies.
Interesting. I'd say they're
all probably off by a bit then. If/when I get around to running
Princes, I may make it so one hex = 5 miles. I'm still hoping someone official - either from WotC or Sasquatch - will address the issues raised in this thread at some point.
Devilbass wrote:I don't think this has been mentioned, and I didn't spot it in the OP which I believe pukunui has been updating with time.
Sacred Stone Monastery - Trapped Stairs: It states that characters on the stairs when the lever is activated must make a dexterity saving throw, though does not specify a DC for said saving throw. Personally, I will probably make it DC 15.
Thanks. I'll add that to the ever-growing list.
Originally posted by cilplxm:
Page 105, E5: If the characters slay the ogres ... some of the ogres from area E9 replace them in an hour.
Page 106, E7: If trouble takes the soldiers in this room unaware... (t)he ogres in area E9 are particularly slow to respond.
But, in the entry for E9, there's no mention of ogres being here, just 2 smelly piles of fur that are used as beds by the ogres in E5.
As DM, I'd probably add 2 ogres to E9 (unless things were already going badly for the PCs...=).
Originally posted by MonsterEnvy:
They forgot to give Ghald the Sahaghin racial trait of blood frenzy which gives him advantage on attack rolls agaist damaged enemies. In the dmg it says to increase his attack bonus by efectivly plus 4. Check if that makes him match his CR of 7 perfectly.
Originally posted by Designbot:
I posted this in the
thread on ENWorld:
The maps aren't even internally consistent within the adventure.
I overlaid the Red Larch Surroundings map over the Dessarin Valley map—if you scale the features to match up, each "2 mile" hex on the Red Larch Surroundings map corresponds to 1/4 of a "10 mile" hex on the Dessarin Valley map. Feathergale Spire should actually be on the Red Larch Surroundings map, near the "H" in "Sumber Hills."
It seems like the simplest way to resolve this is to call the hexes on the Dessarin Valley map 4 miles, and the hexes on the Red Larch Surroundings map 1 mile. I would guess that this is how they started.
(Interestingly, this interpretation puts Feathergale Spire 10 miles from Red Larch, and Scarlet Moon Hall 20 miles from Red Larch, as described on the Red Larch Surroundings map.)
I haven't found a good way to reconcile the temple descriptions with the map.
For the descriptions of the entrances to match up, the ancient city of Tyar-Besil should be about 1/2 mile northeast of Feathergale Spire, about 1/4 mile southwest of Sacred Stone Monastery, "over a mile" southeast of Scarlet Moon Hall, and about 2 miles northwest of Rivergard Keep.
That would put all of the Haunted Keeps in the same hex, close to the river, even at the reduced 4-mile hex scale.
(Actually, now that I consider it, I think there is one way to make the keeps match the descriptions—that would be to make the hexes on the Dessarin Valley map equivalent to 1 mile each (instead of 10 miles). The hexes on the Red Larch map would then represent 1/4 mile each (instead of 2 miles). The winding of the laval tubes, passage, and river would be able to fudge any discrepancies. This is obviously a huge change, and way off of any existing scale, but I wonder if this is closer to what the designers had in mind when they were writing the adventure.)
Originally posted by pukunui:
Yeesh. How annoying.
Originally posted by Sim78:
Don't know whether I'm stupid or not, but in the adventure synopsis on page 6 it says
"The delegation stopped in the tiny village of Beliard, where the members mentioned their intent
to visit sacred dwarven sites before continuing on to Goldenfields. They were last seen at the
west end of the Stone Bridge, turning south to proceed overland through the heart of the Sumber Hills." What I don't understand is why they were going west after Beliard; they were, as I've understood it, also on their way to Summit Hall. Also, the ambush site is south from Beliard, which further strenghtens the notion that they were using the Dessarin Road, not going back to use the Larch path....
Originally posted by pukunui:
No, you're not stupid. That's yet another mistake. It makes no sense that they'd go back the way they came. The sacred dwarven sites in the area are more easily reached by going southeast to Summit Hall. (I believe the sites referred to are the ones you can visit in various side treks, such as the Hall of the Hunting Axe).
Originally posted by pukunui:
Just discovered a new error. The DM map you can purchase and download from Mike Schley has extra numbered locations on it. The Red Larch locations only go up to 22 in the book, but Mike's map has 23-25 as well. The last two are the quarries, while #23 looks to be another business of some sort. Obviously if you buy Mike's map to use with your game, you'll have to just ignore those last few numbers.
Originally posted by CCS:
pukunui wrote:Just discovered a new error. The DM map you can purchase and download from Mike Schley has extra numbered locations on it. The Red Larch locations only go up to 22 in the book, but Mike's map has 23-25 as well. The last two are the quarries, while #23 looks to be another business of some sort. Obviously if you buy Mike's map to use with your game, you'll have to just ignore those last few numbers.
Ah, the classic "Glass 1/2 empty" approach....Why is it obvious that I should ignore those #s?
Why wouldn't it be just as obvious, since this is D&D, that I should use those #s to add personal touches to the adventure as fits the needs of the group?
Originally posted by pukunui:
CCS wrote:Why is it obvious that I should ignore those #s?Why wouldn't it be just as obvious, since this is D&D, that I should use those #s to add personal touches to the adventure as fits the needs of the group?
Well, as I said, two of the extra numbers just mark the quarries (Mellikho's and Dornen's), so they're pretty much redundant. I'm not sure what personal touches you could add using them.
By all means, though, use #23 to add an additional shop to the town. It certainly looks like a shop - and thus probably *should* have been included in the town write-up in the first place.
Originally posted by Emirikol:
I'm stuck running POTA right now. Personally, I think it's the worst adventure I've seen in a few decades (I'd compare it to Forest Oracle). My review:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/tabletoprpgs/search/?query=pota#
My biggest beefs with this scenario, other than it looks like it was haphazardly thrown together late one night and is completely cliche murder-hoboisms at it's best, is that it was $50 and I want my money back
I believe it /had/ potential, but it appears to be just another half-attempted 'nuther dungeon crawl. Sure, every adventure is what you make it...I don't buy scenarios to have to "make it." I buy scenarios because they are professionally produced and non-suckworthy.
I'm prepping it by making sarcastic editor-like comments in the margins, in addition to what you all have found.. It has been an absolute satisfaction and might just make prep almost bearable. I think i have 'murder hobo' written 30 times just in the adv hooks alone! Then there is the BLAH BLAH BLAH with big x's drawn through the mind numbing descriptions of how cool the writer thinks I must think the bbegs weapons are and why fire cultists dont like water cultists..oooh yea.... Oh, and the pointless background descriptions that the players will never find out is like an early issue of Dungeon mag's boxed text! Im more akin to rip into any module that has SPOILER ALERT.. bandits..thats right folks..i'll bet youve never seen nameless bandit encounters befor have you! Then you get four mindless dungeon crawls that feel like Halo when you fight your way into a dungeon and then get to do the same one on the way back out, but with different monsters..lemme guess weer in the water element now! Im not quite sure, the suspense is killing me. Afterall, the past five guys we were hired to murder(im lawful good btw), were all something to do with the same element. Ugh. Wow, i paid fifty bucks for this drivel. Thankfully the awfulness gives me inspiration like Mystery Science 3000!
Here's a pic from our most recent session (sure the players are having fun, but I want to gouge out my eyeballs having to deal with this). BTW, there is an ONLINE NPC list spreadsheet for this 'adventure.'
Originally posted by Emirikol:
btw, here's my players guide to red larch:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/167876/D%26D%20Stuff/Red%20Larch%20PLAYER%20SUMMARY%202015%20by%20jh.docx
Originally posted by MonsterEnvy:
Emirikol wrote:I'm stuck running POTA right now. Personally, I think it's the worst adventure I've seen in a few decades (I'd compare it to Forest Oracle). My review:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/tabletoprpgs/search/?query=pota#
My biggest beefs with this scenario, other than it looks like it was haphazardly thrown together late one night and is completely cliche murder-hoboisms at it's best, is that it was $50 and I want my money back
I believe it /had/ potential, but it appears to be just another half-attempted 'nuther dungeon crawl. Sure, every adventure is what you make it...I don't buy scenarios to have to "make it." I buy scenarios because they are professionally produced and non-suckworthy.
I'm prepping it by making sarcastic editor-like comments in the margins, in addition to what you all have found.. It has been an absolute satisfaction and might just make prep almost bearable. I think i have 'murder hobo' written 30 times just in the adv hooks alone! Then there is the BLAH BLAH BLAH with big x's drawn through the mind numbing descriptions of how cool the writer thinks I must think the bbegs weapons are and why fire cultists dont like water cultists..oooh yea.... Oh, and the pointless background descriptions that the players will never find out is like an early issue of Dungeon mag's boxed text! Im more akin to rip into any module that has SPOILER ALERT.. bandits..thats right folks..i'll bet youve never seen nameless bandit encounters befor have you! Then you get four mindless dungeon crawls that feel like Halo when you fight your way into a dungeon and then get to do the same one on the way back out, but with different monsters..lemme guess weer in the water element now! Im not quite sure, the suspense is killing me. Afterall, the past five guys we were hired to murder(im lawful good btw), were all something to do with the same element. Ugh. Wow, i paid fifty bucks for this drivel. Thankfully the awfulness gives me inspiration like Mystery Science 3000!
Here's a pic from our most recent session (sure the players are having fun, but I want to gouge out my eyeballs having to deal with this). BTW, there is an ONLINE NPC list spreadsheet for this 'adventure.'
Well I will say I don't agree.
Also the fact that the Temples are all part of the same big dungeon appeals to me.
I really like this adventure.
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