On the contrary, The paladin levels are incredibly efficient. By the errata'd Divine Smite, you can burn any spell slots you have. I'd therefore go swash 3 for the mobility, pally 2 for the smite, and fill the rest with BS for more spell slots. The real problem with this build is the MC requirements (the same ones that take Pally2/BSX from potentially amazing to hard to pull off). You need 13 in Str, Dex, Int, and Cha for this build. You can dump Wis, but not really Con, which makes this build MAD AF. You'd have to start close to 13,14,11,14,8,13 to make it work, and the build is going to demand Feats despite you really needing the ASI's.
D&D 5E [GUIDE] Arrive on Time - A General Guide to Wizardry
- Thread starter TheBigHouse
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On the contrary, The paladin levels are incredibly efficient. By the errata'd Divine Smite, you can burn any spell slots you have. I'd therefore go swash 3 for the mobility, pally 2 for the smite, and fill the rest with BS for more spell slots. The real problem with this build is the MC requirements (the same ones that take Pally2/BSX from potentially amazing to hard to pull off). You need 13 in Str, Dex, Int, and Cha for this build. You can dump Wis, but not really Con, which makes this build MAD AF. You'd have to start close to 13,14,11,14,8,13 to make it work, and the build is going to demand Feats despite you really needing the ASI's.
TheBigHouse
Explorer
I disagree.
I do like life cleric + enchantment (or nearly any school), but let's be clear that you actually give up quite a bit while going this route.
With life cleric + enchantment you have -10 move speed (or -feat), -1 spell level known, -1 bump progression, -1 feature progression, and a 13 wis requirement. You can use shields, but your build is not going to really allow you to make opportunity attacks unless you also take warcaster, so you are likely just sitting in the back like a normal wizard.
With bladesinging (starting at 16 Dex) you get about the same AC as the MC twice a day along with BONUS move speed, enhanced concentration checks, no spell progression or feat progression penalty, and no wisdom requirement.
I think when we compare Life cleric 1 + enchanter to pure bladesinger there are certainly trade-offs.
Lets look at the features in detail.
Bladesong vs Hypnotic Gaze
Bladesinging offers a whole host of benefits that work perfectly well from the back row where you want to be when chucking around your spells. Which is what you will be doing on most turns anyway. Hypnotic Gaze is good, specifically when you have very few spells, but I think its pretty clear that on a head to head comparison Bladesinging is more useful in general.
Advantage Bladesinging
Instinctive Charm vs Song of Defense
As you said Instinctive Charm is incompatible with shield, and far more situational, requiring specific positioning.
Song of defense, on the other hand, does not interfere with shield, because it can be used on any damage source, including the most dangerous ones in the game, such as dragon breaths.
Advantage Bladesinging
Split Enchantment vs Extra Attack
Split enchantment is definitely better than extra attack for an enchanter, and extra attack doesn't add that much for BS.
However; let's look that the spells you will probably use this on: Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Otto’s Irresistible Dance.
Tasha's: Good!
Hold Person / Hold Monster: good but, you could get the same effect by just using the spell in 1 slot higher.
Otto's: Eh, you are only going to use this on legendaries, probably. And hopefully you aren't fighting two of them.
Split Enchantment is better but it's not the be-all-end-all.
Advantage Enchantment
Song of Victory vs Alter Memories
Song of victory is generally speaking better than alter memories, unless we want to get into flavor and RP discussions.
Advantage Bladesinging
So taking life cleric 1 for survivabiliy and then going enchantment is a perfectly valid choice. In fact I would call it a strong choice. If you want to be an enchanter, then go for enchantment. It's very good. However, i think that because bladesinger's abilities are more broadly useful, it gets a higher rank.
TheBigHouse
Explorer
And if you are going for 4 multiclass's your GM is probably not going to let you get away with human BS.
13/16/12/14/8/13 with high-elf: Warcaster at 4. If you take swash to 4 for the extra ASI, you can get to 13/20/12/20/8/13 by level 18. Not sure if its worth it, but its just a crazy idea heh. At least starting EK gets you con prof.
I think the Human BS decision should really be setting based. It's restricted to Elves in Forgotten Realms for history's sake. I don't think there's a rule based reason to restrict the race (Variant Human is just as broken with every other class), which is implied by the writers actually suggesting the DM would lift the restriction in many cases.
Multiclassing in general is something I don't think DM's should worry about so much. There are rules in place to keep things balanced for the most part (although most optimized builds are multiclassed, so maybe the rules need some work in that department). Most multiclassed characters are chasing some single character concept. If 5e is going to be so light on rules supplements, I think multiclassing is important to let players achieve their desired unique character concepts.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I don't mean to nitpick, because you're right that Bladesinging isn't trash--when I say it doesn't offer anything not available through multiclassing I mean it doesn't fundamentally change the paradigm. I obviously don't mean that you can get those benefits for free otherwise.
But, here's my response to your point-by-point:
The MADness is, in practice, the biggest limitation. If you roll only a few decent stats you will usually want to go Fighter 1 instead of Life Cleric 1. The movement speed is offset by either Mobile feat as a variant human (which has other benefits as well--although for a tank, Warcaster might be more desirable, depending on how you plan to play), or the Longstrider spell or Expeditious Retreat, or by pumping Str to 13 or 15.
It's more like -0.5 spell levels known since you're only behind 50% of the time.
In return you gain bonus action no-concentration Sanctuary for even better tanking, access to Bless and/or Shield of Faith (to taste), secondary healing capabilities, and potentially better healing on Vampiric Touch (depends on DM ruling). It's not a clear dominant option, but neither is Bladesinger. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't fundamentally alter the paradigm. By 5th level you can either be an AC 20ish Bladesinger (plus Shield and/or Blur), or an AC 21 Fighter 1/Wizard 4 (plus Shield and/or Blur), or an AC 20 Life Cleric/Wizard 4 (plus Shield and/or Blur and/or Shield of Faith and/or Sanctuary). All of these are very tanky options and likely to perform similarly. The difference is that the Bladesinger is slightly ahead on wizard spell levels in exchange for having none of the regular wizard goodies that come from specialization.
It's twice per short rest actually, which highlights the point that the Fighter/Wizard or Cleric/Wizard will have better AC the rest of the time, including on the first round of combat before spending a bonus action. That may or may not be significant depending on how fights tend to happen at your table: how long they go, how much warning you have, whether you get to rest frequently, and overall how far your table leans to Combat As War vs. Sport.
So, Bladesinger has more mobility, slightly worse AC until mid/high levels, comparable ability score requirements (Enchanter: high Int, mid Str/Con/Wis) vs (Bladesinger: high Int, high Dex, mid Con), enhanced concentration checks while Bladesinging, and +0.5 max spell level.
As mentioned previously, the whole reason for taking the Life Cleric/Enchanter combination is if you want to be the party tank while still being a full spellcaster. If you plan to hang out on the back line I'd recommend something else entirely like Necromancer or Illusionist. Bladesinger is a defensible choice for a back-line caster, but unexciting.
But if you actually are a front-line tank, you can be making your enemies hit each other every round while you hold down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze and possibly yet another with a Grapple. Possibly two more with Tasha's Hideous Daughter^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLaughter.
Advantage: Enchanter
First of all, why are you comparing Instinctive Charm (6th level) with Song of Defense (10th level)? At 10th level the Enchanter gets the ability to twin Hold Person/Monster for free, among other spells.
Song of Defense is okay against critical hits, but it still competes with Shield (costs your reaction) and competes with Absorb Elements (also costs your reaction). Instinctive Charm, Song of Defense, Shield, and Absorb Elements all draw upon the exact same action resource so you cannot credibly claim that it doesn't interfere with Shield. Of these three, Instinctive Charm is the weakest defensively because you have to declare it before you know whether the attack would have hit or miss; but it's also free and can/should be used frequently. Song of Defense will probably protect you about as much, over the course of an adventure, as having somebody in your party with the Inspiring Leader feat. It's not garbage, and it can save your life in the right circumstance, and if it weren't for Absorb Elements it would be rated a lot higher, but overall it's solid, not terrific. Suppose you're facing a couple of Young White Dragons at level 10, and they both breathe on you. Absorb Elements (Cold) with a 1st level slot will cut damage from 70-90ish to 35-45ish. Song of Defense with a precious 5th level slot will cut damage from 70-90ish to 45-65ish. Really it's hard to imagine a dragon fight where Song of Defense is appreciably better than Absorb Elements, unless I'm overlooking a breath weapon type that Absorb Elements doesn't work with.
Again, Bladesong isn't garbage, but it's largely redundant.
Advantage: Enchanter
Again, it's kind of weird to compare a 10th level feature vs. a 6th level feature, but my assessment of Split Spell generally matches yours: it's good, but not a killer app. About on par with Song of Defense IMO, although you can leverage it to better. (Significantly, Hold Monster VI is a lot more expensive than Hold Monster V because it eats into your precious 6th+ level slots. Note: I play with spell points at my table, which makes 6th level slots even more rare and precious, so I may have an exaggerated view of the gap between 5th and 6th.)
Eh, I can see it either way. Neither one is especially exciting except in the context of a specific situation. SCAG cantrips are already competitive with Bladesinger damage using Song of Victory; and if you're playing either a backline caster (as you suggest above for Bladesinger) or a Mobile Warcaster Enlarged grapple-tank (perhaps the funnest way to play an Enchanter tank) you're not likely to care about melee damage anyway. The only case where Song of Victory is actually good is where you're enjoying being a melee gish for the fun of it, because you don't like cantrips, which means it's more flavor than anything. And it comes really late in the game too--at this point you've already got Simulacrum!
Thanks for explaining your logic, and thanks for the discussion. Your ranking of Bladesinger is valid; I just wanted to point out some things for the sake of other thread readers.
But, here's my response to your point-by-point:
The MADness is, in practice, the biggest limitation. If you roll only a few decent stats you will usually want to go Fighter 1 instead of Life Cleric 1. The movement speed is offset by either Mobile feat as a variant human (which has other benefits as well--although for a tank, Warcaster might be more desirable, depending on how you plan to play), or the Longstrider spell or Expeditious Retreat, or by pumping Str to 13 or 15.
It's more like -0.5 spell levels known since you're only behind 50% of the time.
In return you gain bonus action no-concentration Sanctuary for even better tanking, access to Bless and/or Shield of Faith (to taste), secondary healing capabilities, and potentially better healing on Vampiric Touch (depends on DM ruling). It's not a clear dominant option, but neither is Bladesinger. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't fundamentally alter the paradigm. By 5th level you can either be an AC 20ish Bladesinger (plus Shield and/or Blur), or an AC 21 Fighter 1/Wizard 4 (plus Shield and/or Blur), or an AC 20 Life Cleric/Wizard 4 (plus Shield and/or Blur and/or Shield of Faith and/or Sanctuary). All of these are very tanky options and likely to perform similarly. The difference is that the Bladesinger is slightly ahead on wizard spell levels in exchange for having none of the regular wizard goodies that come from specialization.
It's twice per short rest actually, which highlights the point that the Fighter/Wizard or Cleric/Wizard will have better AC the rest of the time, including on the first round of combat before spending a bonus action. That may or may not be significant depending on how fights tend to happen at your table: how long they go, how much warning you have, whether you get to rest frequently, and overall how far your table leans to Combat As War vs. Sport.
So, Bladesinger has more mobility, slightly worse AC until mid/high levels, comparable ability score requirements (Enchanter: high Int, mid Str/Con/Wis) vs (Bladesinger: high Int, high Dex, mid Con), enhanced concentration checks while Bladesinging, and +0.5 max spell level.
As mentioned previously, the whole reason for taking the Life Cleric/Enchanter combination is if you want to be the party tank while still being a full spellcaster. If you plan to hang out on the back line I'd recommend something else entirely like Necromancer or Illusionist. Bladesinger is a defensible choice for a back-line caster, but unexciting.
But if you actually are a front-line tank, you can be making your enemies hit each other every round while you hold down another enemy with Hypnotic Gaze and possibly yet another with a Grapple. Possibly two more with Tasha's Hideous Daughter^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLaughter.
Advantage: Enchanter
First of all, why are you comparing Instinctive Charm (6th level) with Song of Defense (10th level)? At 10th level the Enchanter gets the ability to twin Hold Person/Monster for free, among other spells.
Song of Defense is okay against critical hits, but it still competes with Shield (costs your reaction) and competes with Absorb Elements (also costs your reaction). Instinctive Charm, Song of Defense, Shield, and Absorb Elements all draw upon the exact same action resource so you cannot credibly claim that it doesn't interfere with Shield. Of these three, Instinctive Charm is the weakest defensively because you have to declare it before you know whether the attack would have hit or miss; but it's also free and can/should be used frequently. Song of Defense will probably protect you about as much, over the course of an adventure, as having somebody in your party with the Inspiring Leader feat. It's not garbage, and it can save your life in the right circumstance, and if it weren't for Absorb Elements it would be rated a lot higher, but overall it's solid, not terrific. Suppose you're facing a couple of Young White Dragons at level 10, and they both breathe on you. Absorb Elements (Cold) with a 1st level slot will cut damage from 70-90ish to 35-45ish. Song of Defense with a precious 5th level slot will cut damage from 70-90ish to 45-65ish. Really it's hard to imagine a dragon fight where Song of Defense is appreciably better than Absorb Elements, unless I'm overlooking a breath weapon type that Absorb Elements doesn't work with.
Again, Bladesong isn't garbage, but it's largely redundant.
Advantage: Enchanter
Again, it's kind of weird to compare a 10th level feature vs. a 6th level feature, but my assessment of Split Spell generally matches yours: it's good, but not a killer app. About on par with Song of Defense IMO, although you can leverage it to better. (Significantly, Hold Monster VI is a lot more expensive than Hold Monster V because it eats into your precious 6th+ level slots. Note: I play with spell points at my table, which makes 6th level slots even more rare and precious, so I may have an exaggerated view of the gap between 5th and 6th.)
Eh, I can see it either way. Neither one is especially exciting except in the context of a specific situation. SCAG cantrips are already competitive with Bladesinger damage using Song of Victory; and if you're playing either a backline caster (as you suggest above for Bladesinger) or a Mobile Warcaster Enlarged grapple-tank (perhaps the funnest way to play an Enchanter tank) you're not likely to care about melee damage anyway. The only case where Song of Victory is actually good is where you're enjoying being a melee gish for the fun of it, because you don't like cantrips, which means it's more flavor than anything. And it comes really late in the game too--at this point you've already got Simulacrum!
Thanks for explaining your logic, and thanks for the discussion. Your ranking of Bladesinger is valid; I just wanted to point out some things for the sake of other thread readers.
Great discussion... just going to jump in on one point. Song of defense applies to any type of damage. So if you're in a situation you know shield isn't going to be enough (crits or really high stat attackers), looking at a damage type outside the five absorb elements protects against (say poison or psychic), Song of Defense can be your savior. As far as burning spell slots for it, I think Song of Defense comes into it's own at high level, for life saving moments, when mid level spell slots aren't as critical.
Overall, I think you're making good points. Bladesinger isn't necessarily the default best option for frontliner/tank. But I think Bladesinger is capable of a higher DPR than many of these multiclassing options. I appreciate it for it's striker potential... taking some of the utility focus off my wizard, and allowing me to shift into a half utility / half damage role. This is very party dependent... In my party we have a Bard who takes over some of the utility/support role during combat.
TheBigHouse
Explorer
Wow. This is really good, thanks for the response. I totally appreciate all the points you are making and I can't say that I disagree with any of them.
I swapped the 6 and 10th level abilities to compare more apples to apples. Offensive feature vs offensive feature and defensive vs defensive.
I also see your point about absorb elements. It makes SoD pretty situational too.
I think our problem comes down to expectations on playstyles.
Your build is for a melee enchanter. It makes great use of all the features in your build, including the enchanter abilities, heavy armor, and a lot of CC. It is totally legit. I think i see now why you like the build so much. With all that coming together I can see how the build would be sky blue worthy.
My thought for Bladesinger is basically "how can I be the best backline caster I can be?" In that situation bladesinging makes great sense because it offers on demand tankyness when things do turn south, mobility, reliable concentration, and the best spell progression.
So here is where I get in trouble. I have been rating these abilities based on their performance in a traditional wizard role. Melee enchanter might be better than a ranged enchanter or bladesinger, but i don't think ranged enchanter is as good as ranged bladesinger.
Does that make sense?
How should we present this subtle difference? Should we add a note to enchanter that says "check out the neat stuff you can do with a melee enchanter" and then put a section in multiclassing? Should we make Enchanter sky blue to reflect how good that build is, or should we leave it dark blue for the traditional role, and then make the multiclassing build sky blue?
TheBigHouse
Explorer
High elf or gnome might be your best choice anyway. Human cant take warcaster at 1 if you start EK since you don't have any spells.
This is the issue with big catch all class guides. TreantMonk has had the same issue with his utility focused God wizard guide. It's the same reason both your guides now have several notes scattered through them that say (except maybe bladesinger) or (unless you're a grappler).
I just started writing a bladesinger guide after you're suggestion to a multiclassing guide. The first thing I had to clarify was "this is going to be more striker damage focused than traditional utility back line support focused."
And honestly, most classes, and subclasses, especially full spallcasting classes, can be built to fit multiple roles, which completely changes the tone of every section... Stats, race, choice spells, all shift importance with character role focus.
Given that this is "a general guide to wizardry" I would say that most of your guide is as it should be. Perhaps you want to add a small section at the end for non traditional roles. The things you should focus on as a front line striker, or a tank, or a blaster. List spells that shift ratings significantly. Important stat or race differences. And try to leave these notes out of the general guide.
Just some ideas.
I was assuming dual wielder taken as the human feat. Trying to maximize melee damage. TWF with the Int buff to damage and Haste is a very potent combination. To follow up on my last reply, we're building different characters for different roles again
edit:
Ah... but we're back to the 4 class character concept... I'm all over the place. Sorry!
I still imagine as a BS dip, you'd want to TWF. Can't use a shield or two handed weapon, so why not maximize damage with TWF.
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