How many people do you know who haven't switched to 5e, and why haven't they?

Cristian Andreu · Oct 17, 2015

Among the people I know, most of those of us who played Pathfinder moved onto 5e, while several of those who went to 4e are sticking to it for the time being, apparently because they prefer the more tactical approach. Even some friends who never made the jump beyond AD&D 2e have switched to 5e recently; a regular reason for this is that they are finding conversion of material very easy.

I do know several people playing both PF and 4e that haven't moved to 5e due to a lack of Castilian translation, though.

Zhaleskra · Oct 18, 2015

I haven't because while it improves on 4th edition--which I avoided for simplifying too much--it still seems oversimplified. That, and I've found other systems that give me a generic fantasy RPG feeling in a more streamlined way than any version of D&D.

Umbran · Oct 18, 2015

Zhaleskra said:
I haven't because while it improves on 4th edition--which I avoided for simplifying too much--it still seems oversimplified. That, and I've found other systems that give me a generic fantasy RPG feeling in a more streamlined way than any version of D&D.

That's an interesting statement - you want streamlined, but complex? Or, what?

Tony Vargas · Oct 19, 2015

Umbran said:
That's an interesting statement - you want streamlined, but complex?

When you put it that way it sounds...

...pretty good, actually.

It's not like anyone wants complexity for its own sake, it's just that complexity is a price you pay for more choices. The better those choices are structured/presented/balanced the less onerous that cost in complexity can feel.

Miladoon · Oct 19, 2015

I joined the WoTC boards just to be part of the 5E play test. I am glad I did. I was intrigued with the design philosophy. Making the game mine has been my kind of thing and I probably won't move on DMing any other version.

As a player I look for Moldvay's OD&D, Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea, E6 3.5, and 5E.

But I wonder what is going to happen with Pathfinder if/when 5E goes OGL style. Wonder if Paizo would drop Pathfinder and go all out on 5E support. It would be an interesting decision. There are 3PP companies chomping at the bit to be the 5E support stud. Does Paizo split and keep Pathfinder and do 5E support? Can they keep up with a new 5E OGL company, if they stay loyal to Pathfinder?

I don't play Pathfinder but I admire Paizo's business plan. They pretty much taught companies how to sell the hobby. For that, I bought one of their books. But after that, I boycott them because of what they did to the goblin...

Who knows?

Zhaleskra · Oct 20, 2015

Tony summed up in a couple sentences what I thought it would take a long time to explain as a "Yes, and".

Umbran · Oct 20, 2015

Tony Vargas said:
When you put it that way it sounds...

...pretty good, actually.

It may sound good, but lots of things sound good. Someone handing me a million dollars, no strings attached, sounds good, but that's terribly unlikely.

How many games in the history of man actually have such quality? Go? Chess? Mancala? A few card games? They work with *extremely* limited play choices. RPGs have very broad play choices.

So, I think the implied question is: complex *and* streamlined - is this a reasonable expectation?

Zhaleskra · Oct 20, 2015

Easy where it needs to be, streamlined where it needs to be, complex where it needs to be.

That work for you?

Tony Vargas · Oct 20, 2015

Umbran said:
It may sound good, but lots of things sound good. Someone handing me a million dollars, no strings attached, sounds good, but that's terribly unlikely.

How many games in the history of man actually have such quality?

Depends on where you draw the line for 'complex' and 'streamlined.' A more cogent question might be: can a game be both as or more complex than another, and no less streamlined? I think the answer is yes. A good design can manage more complexity - and the benefits of complexity, like a wealth of meaningful/viable choices - without becoming unwieldy. A bad design may become unwieldy even without having reaped much of the benefits of complexity.

Go? Chess? Mancala? A few card games? They work with *extremely* limited play choices.

Not where I'd draw the line, since we're talking about RPGs. A game like Go or Chess is reasonably simple in terms of the rules, but very deep in play. RPGs are often the opposite: very complex rules, but without correspondingly deeper play in that sense (but much broader play, even to the point of being 'infinite games).

So, I think the implied question is: complex *and* streamlined - is this a reasonable expectation?

Yes. Mind you, in that relative sense (above). Compared to how complex and not at all streamlined (complicated, 'baroque,' 'clunky') early RPGs were, for instance, many modern games could be reasonably called 'streamlined,' even the more complex ones, like modern D&D.

Zhaleskra said:
Easy where it needs to be, streamlined where it needs to be, complex where it needs to be.

That work for you?

If you could all agree where a game 'needs' to be each of those things.

Lanefan · Oct 22, 2015

Of the three groups in our crew none have switched to 5e.

For two of those (including my own) the main reason is #4 from post 30: our ongoing 1e-variant campaigns pre-date 5e's release (one pre-dates 4e!) and we don't want to try such a major change on the fly.

The third group is a PF campaign that also pre-dates 5e's release.

For my part I have the 5e core-three books, starter kit, and some of the adventures; I *could* run it in a simplified form almost at the drop of a hat if I had to, but if I were to use it for my next long campaign I'd be doing a whole whack of houseruling and tweaking first.

And though WotC have given me all kinds of reasons to dislike them over the last decade or so (what they did to Dragon and Dungeon, their complete no-show at the latest GenCon, their awful marketing around the 4e release, etc.) they've also given me some reasons to like them (the way they went about designing and building 5e, the release of older books and adventures in hardcopy, putting a lot of classic adventures up as pdf's, etc.) and I still buy their stuff.

Lan-"by the time I get to the point of needing to decide which edition to use next chances are 6e will be out"-efan