D&D 5E Optimizing a BladeSinger

aarduini · Nov 4, 2015

Lets look at levels 8 through 12. This is probably the sweet spot for 5e. Lets assume you are taking feats rather than ability score bumps. Your stats will be as such.

AC 19 (Mage Armor + Dex + Int) with the possibility of a 24 including shield. that's better than most fighters and paladins with a sword and board. This is without concentration spells like blur. You can still use Mirror Image. This means you can use your concentration for attack spells.
Attacks (Assume Rapier) - 1d8+3 x2. Most sword and board warriors will be doing 1d8+7 with no bonus action attack

Bonus action attack - Two weapon fighting warrior does 1d8+3. You have spells like Flaming sphere (2d6 and can be upgraded), Melf's minute Meteor (4d6 per round).

I think the Bladesinger should be making use of his multi-attack. I think spells like GRB and Booming blade benefit the Eldritch Knight more than the Bladesinger.

zarzak · Nov 4, 2015

aarduini said:
Lets look at levels 8 through 12. This is probably the sweet spot for 5e. Lets assume you are taking feats rather than ability score bumps. Your stats will be as such.

AC 19 (Mage Armor + Dex + Int) with the possibility of a 24 including shield. that's better than most fighters and paladins with a sword and board. This is without concentration spells like blur. You can still use Mirror Image. This means you can use your concentration for attack spells.
Attacks (Assume Rapier) - 1d8+3 x2. Most sword and board warriors will be doing 1d8+7 with no bonus action attack

Bonus action attack - Two weapon fighting warrior does 1d8+3. You have spells like Flaming sphere (2d6 and can be upgraded), Melf's minute Meteor (4d6 per round).

I think the Bladesinger should be making use of his multi-attack. I think spells like GRB and Booming blade benefit the Eldritch Knight more than the Bladesinger.

The wizard guide author did a pretty in-depth mathematical analysis of the break-even point for GFB vs basic attack vs other cantrips.

kalani · Nov 4, 2015

Hemlock said:
If you're starting as fighter, you get AC 21 from plate + shield + defense style, and you can use melee controls like Greenflame Blade and Sword Burst to deal damage...

Bladesong can't be used in medium or heavy armor, so you are stuck with light armor/mage armor. Mage armor is superior in most cases unless you get magical armor.

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 5, 2015

kalani said:
Bladesong can't be used in medium or heavy armor, so you are stuck with light armor/mage armor. Mage armor is superior in most cases unless you get magical armor.

Of course. Heavy armor is a fighter 1/wizard X thing, not a passenger thing. The bladesinger comes out a wizard level ahead but has worse A.C., can't take a human feat, and misses out on wizard specialty perks like Arcane Ward or Instinctive Charm.

GrammaChachi · Nov 6, 2015

Hemlock said:
If you're starting as fighter, you get AC 21 from plate + shield + defense style

Hemlock said:
Of course. Heavy armor is a fighter 1/wizard X thing, not a passenger thing. The bladesinger comes out a wizard level ahead but has worse A.C.

I didn't see it mentioned yet, but would Bladesinger enable the highest non-magic-armor AC for a stealth build at later levels?

Using a starting Dex = 16 and Int = 16 and mage armor.

Levels 1 - 3 :: 13 + 3 + 3 = 19
Levels 4 - 7 :: 13 + 3 + 4 = 20
Levels 8 - 11 :: 13 + 3 + 5 = 21
Levels 12 - 15 :: 13 + 4 + 5 = 22
Levels 16 - 18 :: 13 + 5 + 5 = 23

Additionally, you can still cast the cantrip Minor Illusion, first level Ice Knife, third level Counterspell, and Hypnotic Pattern and (eventually) fifth level Mislead with no vocal component to stay hidden.

Arcane ward might still be superior depending on if to-hit or damage of your opponents is greater - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 7, 2015

GrammaChachi said:
I didn't see it mentioned yet, but would Bladesinger enable the highest non-magic-armor AC for a stealth build at later levels?

Using a starting Dex = 16 and Int = 16 and mage armor.

Levels 1 - 3 :: 13 + 3 + 3 = 19

Levels 4 - 7 :: 13 + 3 + 4 = 20

Levels 8 - 11 :: 13 + 3 + 5 = 21

Levels 12 - 15 :: 13 + 4 + 5 = 22

Levels 16 - 18 :: 13 + 5 + 5 = 23

Additionally, you can still cast the cantrip Minor Illusion, first level Ice Knife, third level Counterspell, and Hypnotic Pattern and (eventually) fifth level Mislead with no vocal component to stay hidden.

Arcane ward might still be superior depending on if to-hit or damage of your opponents is greater - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not impossible to stealth in heavy armor. Choose one or more of Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace, Stealth proficiency/Expertise, and the disadvantage from plate becomes pretty minor, because bounded accuracy implies bounded difficulty. +17 stealth with disadvantage still beats even a beholder's +12 passive perception half the time.

NADRIGOL · Nov 7, 2015

Loved Zarzak's Fighter/Bladesinger idea. I'm running it in a campaign starting next week.

For anyone wondering how the attack build interacts with the new Cantrips I made an average damage table...

This assumes everything Zarzak outlined in his first post.

zarzak · Nov 7, 2015

NADRIGOL said:
Loved Zarzak's Fighter/Bladesinger idea. I'm running it in a campaign starting next week.

For anyone wondering how the attack build interacts with the new Cantrips I made an average damage table...

This assumes everything Zarzak outlined in his first post.

Glad you liked the idea.

Its interesting to see the damage bumps laid out like that. You should update us with how it works out for you!

What levels will your campaign be running through?

*Edit* If you're using the dual wielder build I laid out you should almost never fail a con save. Proficiency in them *and* advantage with them at level 4, so you can make use of concentration spells in the frontline with no issue.

NADRIGOL · Nov 7, 2015

Starting at level 1. It's a lot of new people, but everyone seems pretty serious about sticking around, so it will run until we lose too many people or there's a super satisfying ending.

GrammaChachi · Nov 8, 2015

NADRIGOL said:
Starting at level 1. It's a lot of new people, but everyone seems pretty serious about sticking around, so it will run until we lose too many people or there's a super satisfying ending.

Just to confirm your current plan:

Skipping the elfs-only racial requirement?

Only taking one level of fighter?

I'm curious because I am trying to determine when to expose the new players in my group to optional rules of feats and multi-class and eventually to new splat.