Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Steve comes home from a long day of whatever it is that requires him to carry a Morningstar around, when his cat, Fluffy, attacks for no apparent reason!
Match 1
Fluffy gets the drop on Steve, and pounces at him from the table! Ooh, a vicious gash to Steve's left arm, as he tries to defend himself! Steve counters with his morningstar, crushing Fluffy's skull. Poor Fluffy.
Match 2
Steve sees the murderous gleam in Fluffy's eye, and charges at his beloved pet, Morningstar raised. Fluffy manages to dodge the attack, and the weapon smashes into the table. Now in range, Fluffy jumps at Steve's face, clawing and biting. Both claws sink into Steve's face, but he jerks away before Fluffy can bite him, and the cat lands back onto the kitchen table. Steve swings his Morningstar down again, but again Fluffy is too fast, and dodges the attack. Fluffy counters with another viscious lunge and sinks a claw into Steve's cheek, biting the tip of his nose off before landing on the floor. Steve counters with a vicious blow yet again, but this one connects, and sends Fluffy's limp body slamming into the wall. Poor Fluffy.
(Good thing I gave Steve the Toughness feat, otherwise Fluffy would have had him.)
Match 3
Steve runs into the room and mashes Fluffy to a gooey pulp, nearly breaking his table in half. Poor Fluffy.
Match 4
Steve gets the drop on Fluffy, who nimbly dodges his attack, and leaps onto Steve's face, sinking both claws into his soft flesh, and biting the top of Steve's lip off. Steve counters, crushing Fluffy's skull. Poor Fluffy.
(Good thing I gave Steve the Toughness feat, otherwise Fluffy would have had him, again.)
Match 5
Steve runs into the room, smashing fluffy into the wall. Poor Fluffy.
Ok, so with the Toughness feat, a Commoner stands a pretty damn good chance against a housecat. But without it... So help him [Insert name of Commoner's patron deity here].
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Poor Fluffy.
Originally posted by teemuu:
I bet 2 fluffys can take him . heh
Originally posted by seerow:
What happens when the Commoner has a more common weapon like a Dagger or Quarterstaff instead of a Morning Star (which costs more than an average commoner might have to spare in a lifetime)
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
agreed, the morningstar is an unfair advantage
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Well, I gave him the hardest-hitting simple one-handed weapon, just for the fun of it. With Fluffy's 2hp, and with Steve's 13 Str giving him a +1 damage bonus, if Steve hits Fluffy with *any* weapon, Fluffy dies.
And this is a Human with the crap-stats(13,11,11,10,9,8) and a single level of the DMG's Commoner class, giving him weapon proficiency(Morningstar), and 2 feats(Toughness and Dodge). The Dodge actually didn't help him in any of the matches I ran...
Originally posted by Someone:
Wouldn't the commoner more likely have stats of 11,11,11,10,10,10 instead of 13,12,11,10,9,8? Because its no longer Steve the commoner, its Steve the bouncer/goon/manual laborer. Not to mention the toughness feat pretty much doubles his hp.
As a variant, what if the commoner and/or the cat fought defensively? Or what if the commoner and/or cat started a grapple? The morningstar wouldn't be useful there... Oh, and since the cat was up on a table, wouldn't it get the "higher ground" bonus?
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
try having him fight unarmed
Originally posted by seerow:
But a 13 strength commoner with a morning star, as pointed out, isn't really a commoner but a bouncer most likely. He's also far more likely to be a Warrior than a commoner.
Originally posted by kjenks:
The Monster Manual Errata nerfed Fluffy. The loss of Weapon Finesse means Fluffy now has a full attack of...
2 claws –2 melee (1d2–4) and bite –7 melee (1d3–4)
...instead of...
2 claws +4 melee (1d2–4) and bite –1 melee (1d3–4)
So the claws only hit Steve on 12 or higher the bite only hits on 17+.
Steve can hit the cat's AC 14 on 13+. Since the cat is Tiny, it must enter Steve's square to attack.
So let's look at Steve vs. Fluffy in a little more detail.
If Fluffy wins Init, he could move into Steve's square and get one claw attack, inflictin at most 1 HP. Fluffy entering Steve's square provokes an AoO, but since Steve is flat-footed, he doesn't get one (unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat).
On Steve's turn, he tries to hit Fluffy then he takes a 5 ft. step back. The 5 ft. step is crucial to Steve's tactics. If Steve hits, Fluffy will take more damage than Steve did because Steve's Str is higher.
Next, on Fluffy's turn, Fluffy must enter Steve's square to attack. This provokes an AoO, but this time, Steve is ready for him. Another attack on Fluffy. If Fluffy survives, he could get a full attack. Even if he hits with all three attacks, Fluffy can inflict at most 3 HP of damage.
On Steve's next turn, instead of attacking with his weapon, Steve could take a 5 ft. step back then attempt a grapple. Since Steve is not in a square that Fluffy threatens, Fluffy doesn't get to make an AoO in grapple step 1 (per PH, backed up by FAQ). Step 2 will be a little difficult because Steve needs a total attack roll of 14+. Step 3 should be easy since Fluffy takes a -8 on his grapple checks from being Tiny for a total of -12, and after winning, Steve inflicts 1d3+1 nonlethal damage. Step 4 has Steve move back into Fluffy's square to maintain the grapple on Fluffy, if needed. If the grapple fails, Steve still gets to AoO Fluffy when he comes in for his next attack.
My money is on Steve, nine fights out of ten. If Steve is unarmed, he still wins about eight fights out of ten. (If he's unarmed, he can't take an AoO since he doesn't threaten Fluffy's square, cutting his effective number of attacks in half. But even one hit with an unarmed strike at 1d3+1 will KO Fluffy.)
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
yes a comoner gets one simple weapon prof, but it dosent mean he will use it, i know how to fire a rifle that dosent mean i carry a .303 to work (if if it was socialy acceptable i probably wouldent bother)
Originally posted by norsesmithy:
Sure you wouldn't carry a .303 to work, but how about a knife?
Not to mention lots of people do go about their lives armed, I have a conceled carry permit, and carry a .44 MAG everywhere but community college (though If I were to stat myself out, I think I would at least be a warrior, STR 17 humans don't take commoner levels [and yes I can lift 260 lbs over my head])
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Ok then, 3 rounds of Steve the unarmed uber-Commoner(11,11,11,10,10,10 stats, no Toughness feat, still not wise enough to back away from the angry cat) vs. Fluffy the MM Errata nerf kitty.
Match 1
Fluffy gets the jump on Steve, pouncing at his face, scratching his cheek. Steve takes a backhanded swipe at the cat, but Fluffy nimbly dodges. The cat again leaps at Steve, this time from right beneath him, but catches only pants. Steve kicks at the cat, who dodges, leaps, and again catches only clothes. Steve kicks at the cat again, is dodged again, and this time Fluffy makes good with his attack, sinking a claw into Steve's leg. Another kick from Steve, another dodge from Fluffy, and the cat manages to sink a claw into Steve's leg. After more dancing from the two, Fluffy sinks her claws into an artery in Steve's leg, killing him.
(Wow, lot of crappy rolls in that match)
Match 2
Fluffy leaps at Steve from the table, who swats uselessly at the cat, who lands on the ground at his feet. Fluffy goes all-out, and Steve's head comes off.
(Fluffy crit twice on the Full Attack. Even the Bite. O_O )
Match 3
Steve attack the cat. Lots of dancing, eventually Steve knocks Fluffy out and brings him to the Vet Clinic.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
But even when i go to ren fares i dont carry a blade (a knife yes) even though i can strut about with a sword (or any other weapon for that matter). in a peacfull place they are just another useless item that i have to truck around
Although in steves case (what with having an evil cat) i would want somthing, i just dont understand why he keeps shelling out cash on those "raise dead pet" spells
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Originally posted by seerow:
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Originally posted by arvagor:
I still put my money on Fluffy
Originally posted by lord_varos:
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Man, Fluffy freakin' rocks!
Originally posted by boozerker:
Originally posted by seerow:
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Originally posted by lord_varos:
I have three cats, and I know for a fact that their AC is higher than 14. If those little animals don't want me to catch them, I'm not catching them. And why does a dog have natural armor? Would that be from the chitinous plates covering its hide? If dogs have NA, humans certainly do.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Gotta remember that D&D dogs aren't the poofy little bastards we have running around all over the place. These are big ole' wolf-related dogs, with thick fur, and slightly-tougher-than-ours skin.
Originally posted by norsesmithy:
I think they are faster than 30 foot base speed though, or at least can change direction during a run action.
Also the natural armour of a dog is its thick coat that softens blows and slows projectiles.
Originally posted by kimokeo:
Cats have nine lives. By the time you get to round 10, my bet is on Fluffy.
Round 1
Steve: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Fluffy: Move Silently...crawl under the covers between Steve's legs...claw/claw/claw/claw/bite.
Steve: neutered.
Fluffy: strange mouse toy - no squeak.
Round 2
Steve is looking out the window of his flat as Fluffy approaches
Fluffy: Move Silently...Bull Rush. Both go out the window.
Steve: Flumph. Dead on the ground.
Fluffy: Lands on all four. Done.
Round 3
Fluffy: Listen
Fluffy: Hide in Shadows
Fluffy: Move Silently
Fluffy: Sneak Attack
Fluffy: Nap
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
what happens if you make fluffy a lv1 rogue?
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Fluffy has a touch of dragon blood in here. 1st level Sorceror. Magic Missiles.
Hands down winner, fluffy the Sorceror cat.
Originally posted by vaalingrade_ash...:
Originally posted by seerow:
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Fluffy the Sorcerer Ninja Cat!
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Oh yeah, baby! Cogs. Or Dats? Whatever. Forget I said anything.
EDIT: Or Dots!
Originally posted by arvagor:
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Originally posted by seerow:
Originally posted by boozerker:
Next encounter, the cat is surprised to meet Steve's new big dog.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Originally posted by boozerker:
Originally posted by raymond_luxury_yacht:
Originally posted by seerow:
Steve comes home from a long day of whatever it is that requires him to carry a Morningstar around, when his cat, Fluffy, attacks for no apparent reason!
Match 1
Fluffy gets the drop on Steve, and pounces at him from the table! Ooh, a vicious gash to Steve's left arm, as he tries to defend himself! Steve counters with his morningstar, crushing Fluffy's skull. Poor Fluffy.
Match 2
Steve sees the murderous gleam in Fluffy's eye, and charges at his beloved pet, Morningstar raised. Fluffy manages to dodge the attack, and the weapon smashes into the table. Now in range, Fluffy jumps at Steve's face, clawing and biting. Both claws sink into Steve's face, but he jerks away before Fluffy can bite him, and the cat lands back onto the kitchen table. Steve swings his Morningstar down again, but again Fluffy is too fast, and dodges the attack. Fluffy counters with another viscious lunge and sinks a claw into Steve's cheek, biting the tip of his nose off before landing on the floor. Steve counters with a vicious blow yet again, but this one connects, and sends Fluffy's limp body slamming into the wall. Poor Fluffy.
(Good thing I gave Steve the Toughness feat, otherwise Fluffy would have had him.)
Match 3
Steve runs into the room and mashes Fluffy to a gooey pulp, nearly breaking his table in half. Poor Fluffy.
Match 4
Steve gets the drop on Fluffy, who nimbly dodges his attack, and leaps onto Steve's face, sinking both claws into his soft flesh, and biting the top of Steve's lip off. Steve counters, crushing Fluffy's skull. Poor Fluffy.
(Good thing I gave Steve the Toughness feat, otherwise Fluffy would have had him, again.)
Match 5
Steve runs into the room, smashing fluffy into the wall. Poor Fluffy.
Ok, so with the Toughness feat, a Commoner stands a pretty damn good chance against a housecat. But without it... So help him [Insert name of Commoner's patron deity here].
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Poor Fluffy.
Originally posted by teemuu:
I bet 2 fluffys can take him . heh
Originally posted by seerow:
What happens when the Commoner has a more common weapon like a Dagger or Quarterstaff instead of a Morning Star (which costs more than an average commoner might have to spare in a lifetime)
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
agreed, the morningstar is an unfair advantage
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Well, I gave him the hardest-hitting simple one-handed weapon, just for the fun of it. With Fluffy's 2hp, and with Steve's 13 Str giving him a +1 damage bonus, if Steve hits Fluffy with *any* weapon, Fluffy dies.
And this is a Human with the crap-stats(13,11,11,10,9,8) and a single level of the DMG's Commoner class, giving him weapon proficiency(Morningstar), and 2 feats(Toughness and Dodge). The Dodge actually didn't help him in any of the matches I ran...
Originally posted by Someone:
Wouldn't the commoner more likely have stats of 11,11,11,10,10,10 instead of 13,12,11,10,9,8? Because its no longer Steve the commoner, its Steve the bouncer/goon/manual laborer. Not to mention the toughness feat pretty much doubles his hp.
As a variant, what if the commoner and/or the cat fought defensively? Or what if the commoner and/or cat started a grapple? The morningstar wouldn't be useful there... Oh, and since the cat was up on a table, wouldn't it get the "higher ground" bonus?
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
try having him fight unarmed
Originally posted by seerow:
Nah, commoners get 1 simple weapon proficiency, so they can use a weapon.
But a 13 strength commoner with a morning star, as pointed out, isn't really a commoner but a bouncer most likely. He's also far more likely to be a Warrior than a commoner.
Originally posted by kjenks:
The Monster Manual Errata nerfed Fluffy. The loss of Weapon Finesse means Fluffy now has a full attack of...
2 claws –2 melee (1d2–4) and bite –7 melee (1d3–4)
...instead of...
2 claws +4 melee (1d2–4) and bite –1 melee (1d3–4)
So the claws only hit Steve on 12 or higher the bite only hits on 17+.
Steve can hit the cat's AC 14 on 13+. Since the cat is Tiny, it must enter Steve's square to attack.
So let's look at Steve vs. Fluffy in a little more detail.
If Fluffy wins Init, he could move into Steve's square and get one claw attack, inflictin at most 1 HP. Fluffy entering Steve's square provokes an AoO, but since Steve is flat-footed, he doesn't get one (unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat).
On Steve's turn, he tries to hit Fluffy then he takes a 5 ft. step back. The 5 ft. step is crucial to Steve's tactics. If Steve hits, Fluffy will take more damage than Steve did because Steve's Str is higher.
Next, on Fluffy's turn, Fluffy must enter Steve's square to attack. This provokes an AoO, but this time, Steve is ready for him. Another attack on Fluffy. If Fluffy survives, he could get a full attack. Even if he hits with all three attacks, Fluffy can inflict at most 3 HP of damage.
On Steve's next turn, instead of attacking with his weapon, Steve could take a 5 ft. step back then attempt a grapple. Since Steve is not in a square that Fluffy threatens, Fluffy doesn't get to make an AoO in grapple step 1 (per PH, backed up by FAQ). Step 2 will be a little difficult because Steve needs a total attack roll of 14+. Step 3 should be easy since Fluffy takes a -8 on his grapple checks from being Tiny for a total of -12, and after winning, Steve inflicts 1d3+1 nonlethal damage. Step 4 has Steve move back into Fluffy's square to maintain the grapple on Fluffy, if needed. If the grapple fails, Steve still gets to AoO Fluffy when he comes in for his next attack.
My money is on Steve, nine fights out of ten. If Steve is unarmed, he still wins about eight fights out of ten. (If he's unarmed, he can't take an AoO since he doesn't threaten Fluffy's square, cutting his effective number of attacks in half. But even one hit with an unarmed strike at 1d3+1 will KO Fluffy.)
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
yes a comoner gets one simple weapon prof, but it dosent mean he will use it, i know how to fire a rifle that dosent mean i carry a .303 to work (if if it was socialy acceptable i probably wouldent bother)
Originally posted by norsesmithy:
Sure you wouldn't carry a .303 to work, but how about a knife?
Not to mention lots of people do go about their lives armed, I have a conceled carry permit, and carry a .44 MAG everywhere but community college (though If I were to stat myself out, I think I would at least be a warrior, STR 17 humans don't take commoner levels [and yes I can lift 260 lbs over my head])
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Ok then, 3 rounds of Steve the unarmed uber-Commoner(11,11,11,10,10,10 stats, no Toughness feat, still not wise enough to back away from the angry cat) vs. Fluffy the MM Errata nerf kitty.
Match 1
Fluffy gets the jump on Steve, pouncing at his face, scratching his cheek. Steve takes a backhanded swipe at the cat, but Fluffy nimbly dodges. The cat again leaps at Steve, this time from right beneath him, but catches only pants. Steve kicks at the cat, who dodges, leaps, and again catches only clothes. Steve kicks at the cat again, is dodged again, and this time Fluffy makes good with his attack, sinking a claw into Steve's leg. Another kick from Steve, another dodge from Fluffy, and the cat manages to sink a claw into Steve's leg. After more dancing from the two, Fluffy sinks her claws into an artery in Steve's leg, killing him.
(Wow, lot of crappy rolls in that match)
Match 2
Fluffy leaps at Steve from the table, who swats uselessly at the cat, who lands on the ground at his feet. Fluffy goes all-out, and Steve's head comes off.
(Fluffy crit twice on the Full Attack. Even the Bite. O_O )
Match 3
Steve attack the cat. Lots of dancing, eventually Steve knocks Fluffy out and brings him to the Vet Clinic.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
it must just be that im canadian and carrying wapons is not in our culture
But even when i go to ren fares i dont carry a blade (a knife yes) even though i can strut about with a sword (or any other weapon for that matter). in a peacfull place they are just another useless item that i have to truck around
Although in steves case (what with having an evil cat) i would want somthing, i just dont understand why he keeps shelling out cash on those "raise dead pet" spells
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Maybe if Steve was a Halfling. A short halfling.
Originally posted by seerow:
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Originally posted by arvagor:
You're reading the errata incorrectly; Fluffy keeps Weapon Finesse and gains Stealthy as well. So Fluffy's full attack remains: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2–4) and bite –1 melee (1d3–4) (d20srd.org has it right: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm(x))
Originally posted by lord_varos:
This cracks me up. Can I put this in my sig?
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Man, Fluffy freakin' rocks!
Originally posted by boozerker:
Flanking bonus.
That's like having Fluffy fight declawed
Originally posted by seerow:
Go for it
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
hey if it was my cat i would have the evil thing declawedThat's like having Fluffy fight declawed
Originally posted by lord_varos:
I have three cats, and I know for a fact that their AC is higher than 14. If those little animals don't want me to catch them, I'm not catching them. And why does a dog have natural armor? Would that be from the chitinous plates covering its hide? If dogs have NA, humans certainly do.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Gotta remember that D&D dogs aren't the poofy little bastards we have running around all over the place. These are big ole' wolf-related dogs, with thick fur, and slightly-tougher-than-ours skin.
Hide bonus, and... Umm... Size bonus on escaping Grapple checks? >_>
Originally posted by norsesmithy:
That is only because you aren't trying to hurt them, beleive me, if you are fighting a small animal like a weasel or a P/Oed tomcat, that you want to kill, because its savaging your leg, its pretty easy to crush their little bodies.
I think they are faster than 30 foot base speed though, or at least can change direction during a run action.
Also the natural armour of a dog is its thick coat that softens blows and slows projectiles.
Originally posted by kimokeo:
Cats have nine lives. By the time you get to round 10, my bet is on Fluffy.
Round 1
Steve: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Fluffy: Move Silently...crawl under the covers between Steve's legs...claw/claw/claw/claw/bite.
Steve: neutered.
Fluffy: strange mouse toy - no squeak.
Round 2
Steve is looking out the window of his flat as Fluffy approaches
Fluffy: Move Silently...Bull Rush. Both go out the window.
Steve: Flumph. Dead on the ground.
Fluffy: Lands on all four. Done.
Round 3
Fluffy: Listen
Fluffy: Hide in Shadows
Fluffy: Move Silently
Fluffy: Sneak Attack
Fluffy: Nap
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
what happens if you make fluffy a lv1 rogue?
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Fluffy's a friggin' ninja!
Yeah baby! Ninja cats FTW!I still put my money on Fluffy
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Fluffy has a touch of dragon blood in here. 1st level Sorceror. Magic Missiles.
Hands down winner, fluffy the Sorceror cat.
Originally posted by vaalingrade_ash...:
Also, why does the drooling, subserviant cur have such a high Cha?
Originally posted by seerow:
Because everyone except cat lovers love dogs. They didn't get that way by having low charisma.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
Not only that, but ninja too!
Fluffy the Sorcerer Ninja Cat!
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
I love both. I'm thinking about conducting some grotesque mating experiment so I can have both. At once. In the same body.
Oh yeah, baby! Cogs. Or Dats? Whatever. Forget I said anything.
EDIT: Or Dots!
Originally posted by arvagor:
This thread has actually inspired what may be a truly evil encounter for the next low-level adventure I write -- a cat swarm! :evillaugh
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
awsome that could actualy be a serious encounter and a damn scary one at that
Originally posted by seerow:
One fine day with a wolf and a bird, a baby was born and it caused a little stir. No pink bunny, no three eyed frog, little lone little whirl, little cat-dog. Cat-Dog, Cat-Dog *insert rest of theme song here*
Originally posted by boozerker:
Next encounter, the cat is surprised to meet Steve's new big dog.
Originally posted by zombiegleemax:
I think little Fluffy the Lionhearted Cat Ninja Sorcerer can handle a puny dog.
Originally posted by boozerker:
That's LOL funny.
Originally posted by raymond_luxury_yacht:
Little lone little whirl?
Originally posted by seerow:
Cut me a break, I haven't heard the song in over 6 years.
