Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
The really sporadic optimization showcase brings you... The Bow-laster, another excercise in 3.5 Archery and getting away from expectations of class roles.
Unless otherwise noted, showcase builds use 28 point-buy, and have their snapshots evaluated using fractional base attack / saves (because it simplifies the math).
None of them actually rely on fractional to be built, though. The format I use showcases their progression at key levels rather than just presenting the build and
showing off a few tricks at level 20; most of these are capable of being played 1-20 if you so choose.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week,
------------------
Bow-laster
Breaking the four boxes, from over 1000' away.
Required Books: Dragon Magazeen 310 (Yep I went there), Complete Warrior, Complete Scoundrel, Races of the Wild, Tome of Battle, PHB2, Complete Champion
Unearthed Arcana used: Not this time.
Background: After looking at a recent threads and wondering 'What kind of sniper can I make without spells', this is what I came up, using RT as a sounding board.
The Basics
Skill Notes: Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist and Sense Motive are all pretty valuable skills here so we'll assume those stay near max.
Basic Equipment: Longbow, chain shirt, and rapier as a backup weapon, alternate material arrows for overcoming damage reduction.
Magical Gear Goals: An Energy Bow would be fantastic, as would Keen on said bow. Attack bonus and Init (since not having acted leaves most foes vulerable to a sneak attack) are key and both stem from Dex so boost that as well as getting other attack and or Init boosting gear. Alternative magical amunition, classic comic-book archer style. Bursting amunition is surprisingly GOOD in the hands of this build with all the crit mods, and makes for a decent way to deal with elementals (get bursting ammo of the appropriate types).
The Build.
Build Stub: Swashbuckler 14, Targeteer Fighter 2, Rogue 4
1 – Swashbuckler – (Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot)
*
[sblock]Taking advantage of the really high Dex in a somewhat flexible open that is playable, even if it won't stand up to the Greatsword using Water Orc Barbarian.[/sblock]
2 – Swashbuckler – (Grace +1)
3 – Swashbuckler – (Insightful strike)(Rapid Shot) *
[sblock]The extra attack is great, no question, this also keys us up for the upcoming Targeteer ability.
[/sblock]
4 – Swashbuckler -
5 – Swashbuckler – (Dodge bonus +1)
6 – Fighter – (Sniper)(Woodland Archer *
[sblock]The ability to sacrifice attacks for an increased chance to crit is good at level 6 since iterative attacks are less likely to hit. This ability improves dramatically at 12 and 17 when third and fourth iteratives come online since they are increasingly less likely to yield hits.Woodland Sniper is pound for pound one of the best buys to look for in an Archery build. It does so much, including making that iterative attack more useful.
[/sblock]
7 – Fighter – (Arrow swarm) *
[sblock]Add two more attacks for a -5, nothing indicates this doens't stack with Rapid Shot, seems a bad idea perhaps to take -7. At times it will be strong though, when fighting low AC foes or extroardinarily high AC foes (if only a 20 hits anyway).[/sblock]8 – Swashbuckler
9 – Rogue – (Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding) (Craven)
*
[sblock]From zero sneak attack to 1d6+9 in a single level. Craven, you so good for this stuff.[/sblock]
10 – Rogue – (Evasion)
11 – Rogue – (Sneak attack +2d6, death's ruin) *
[sblock]This makes fighting undead a lot less horrible, yay![/sblock]
12 – Swashbuckler – (Acrobatic charge) (Telling Blow) *
[sblock]This build lacks the methods normally used to get into a sneak attack position, it however doens't lack ways to generate critical hits.[/sblock]13 – Swashbuckler – (Improved flanking)
14 – Swashbuckler -
15 – Swashbuckler – (Dodge bonus +2, sneak attack +7d6, grace +2)(Daring Outlaw)
*
[sblock]Another really gigantic leap in sneak attack damage from 2d6+14 to 7d6+15. In a team that enables sneak attack well I'd consider this before Telling Blow, otherwise keep this order.
[/sblock]
16 – Swashbuckler – (Lucky)
17 – Swashbuckler – (Sneak attack +8d6)
18 – Swashbuckler – (Acrobatic skill mastery) (Martial Study) *
[sblock]Cloak of Deception is another major enabler for Sneak Attack damaage. Once per combat this enables a full round of high damage.
[/sblock]
19 – Swashbuckler – (Weakening critical, sneak attack +9d6) *
[sblock]This just tickles me in this build which already has such a high focus on scoring critical hits the synergy makes for a decent pinnacle ability.
[/sblock]
20 – Rogue – (Disruptive Attack) *
[sblock]Not fantastic but an alright ability. This is especially good when dealing with crit immune targets outside of undead.
[/sblock]
Snapshot: Precision damage and rapid shot paired for quick beat downs within 30'. Longer ranged attacks can be used to soften up exceptionally tough (or crit immune) targets or deal with overwhelming numbers of less powerful foes.
Overall Strengths: Impressive precision damage (9d6+20) and a solid number of attacks (4+up to 3 without haste) with good attack bonus (19 BAB and possible 34 Dex with gear). Modular ranged attack modes taking extra attacks and or improving threat range in exchange for less accurate attacks. Precision damage still works in melee, as well Improved flanking and acrobatic charge help keep this build viable even if forced to fight in melee. Strong Fort save (+13 Base and probably a +5 Con bonus) and Ref save (10 Base and 12 Dex bonus), Escape Artist to avoid bad grapple situations a small low-ish strength warrior type might get into. Surprisingly strong social utility with Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
Overall Weaknesses: The classic melee character flaw (a poor will save), is further exadurated by Craven and this makes the Bow-laster quite vaulnerable to certain spells and attacks. Reliance on sneak attack for damage means that you really need to make sure you've got alternative amunitions especially for dealing with targets
immune to precision damage.
Variants: I like goblin for the Dex bonus, Darkvision and lack of a crippling downside. Strongheart Halfling or Human would give more feat options and Whispergnome would be a minor reflavour with most of the same abilities. If using Strongheart Halfling or Human additional feat options open up.
There you have it. A traditional melee archetype turned into a "glass cannon" style archer. Effective range from 0' to over 1000' with optimal range against most targets in the 30' zone. Simple and effective with a variety of tactical choices to be made.
Originally posted by Pheonix042:
This is interesting for me, particularly considering the ongoing discussions going on for one of my PCs.
I have a few questions.
1) Would you still consider this viable using crossbows? How would you change it (assuming easy modifications are available)?
2) Is this likely more powerful than taking 14 levels of warblade just for time stands still and the mongoose maneuvers?
3) Would blood-in-the-water in feat form be a good pick-up for this build? Would it likely outshine assassin's stance?
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
The idea is to kill a target before Blood would be very useful. You could use Crossbow if running Human or Strongheart Halfling (for the bonus feat to reload faster). The trick about this vs the Warblade rout (I spearheaded The Heavy Weapons Elf as well), is smoothness of build. This build is "online" at 1, and shooting stuff at every level of build. Break points where this build gets its best abilities are probably 6, 9, 12, 15 and 19. Where the last level isn't very important (like at all) tacking on a Swordsage or Warblade level at the end, maybe even giving up a targeteer ability (Arrow Volley?) and making it two levels could work well. Doing so could net you access to Dancing Mongoose and a variety of other effects.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
Actually the more I think about it, a two level Swordsage Dip is GOOD in place of 1 Fighter and 1 Rogue. Take your first Rogue at 7 then Swordsage 1 and 9 (This will get a pile of goodies including Cloak of Deception), the final Swordsage level can show up at 20, or as early as 16 (14/2+2=9, so you can get Dancing Mongoose at 16). The feat you get back from Cloak of Deception can go into Adaptive Style. This assumes a game with no XP penalty as you'll have 1/2/3/14 as levels.
Originally posted by Pheonix042:
It suddenly occured to me to dip rogue and grab craven with the sniper I'm helping with, netting 23.5 average SA damage (almost half the total this build grabs) without interfering with the ability to still pick up Time Stands Still at 20th, or the mongoose's. This could actually be more powerful than either build, though I'm not sure (haven't run the numbers on it).
It amounts to a hybrid style, picking up some of the insane sneak attack damage of this build, but applying it to many more attacks.
Unfortunatly, I'm not sure how I'm going to fit in 3+ iterations of Font of Inspiration PLUS craven PLUS woodland archer, all in the last 11 levels (with 3 feats to burn, really).
I'm going to have to cut some things.
Isn't woodland archer a fighter bonus feat? I smell an excellent use of the Heroics spell for a character with lots of UMD ranks.
Unfortunatly, that still only limits it to two font feats. Is that even worth it? If not, should I dump factotum and pick up rogue+craven at level 1, in place of something else?
What about improved precise shot?
This is hard...
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
The crossbow idea now really has me thinking... you could get a lot more mileage out of Telling Blow that way. A rebuild may be on its way.
Probably something like this
[sblock]HumanRogue (Craven, Point Blank Shot)Rogue
Rogue (Death's Ruin) (Telling Blow)Rogue (Disruptive Attack)Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)Swashbuckler (Grace +1) (Daring Outlaw, 3d6 SA)Fighter (Targeteer:Sniper)Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike, 4d6 SA)Swashbuckler (Rapid Reload)Swashbuckler (Dodge bonus +1, 5d6 SA)SwashbucklerSwashbuckler (Rapid Shot) (Acrobatic charge)Swashbuckler (Improved flanking, 6d6 SA, grace +2)SwashbucklerSwashbuckler (Dodge bonus +2, 7d6 SA) (Woodland Archer)Swashbuckler (Lucky)Swordsage (Quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus
esert Wind), (Rabid Wolf Strike, *Blood in the Water, Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Cloak of Deception, Wind Stride, Sudden Leap)Swashbuckler (Adaptive Style)Swashbuckler (Acrobatic skill mastery)Swashbuckler (Weakening Critical) *This was a tough call, either adding Str damage which can be "Super Effective" or grabbing Swordsage level 2 for more SA Dice/Damage[/sblock]
The really sporadic optimization showcase brings you... The Bow-laster, another excercise in 3.5 Archery and getting away from expectations of class roles.
Unless otherwise noted, showcase builds use 28 point-buy, and have their snapshots evaluated using fractional base attack / saves (because it simplifies the math).
None of them actually rely on fractional to be built, though. The format I use showcases their progression at key levels rather than just presenting the build and
showing off a few tricks at level 20; most of these are capable of being played 1-20 if you so choose.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week,
------------------
Bow-laster
Breaking the four boxes, from over 1000' away.
Required Books: Dragon Magazeen 310 (Yep I went there), Complete Warrior, Complete Scoundrel, Races of the Wild, Tome of Battle, PHB2, Complete Champion
Unearthed Arcana used: Not this time.
Background: After looking at a recent threads and wondering 'What kind of sniper can I make without spells', this is what I came up, using RT as a sounding board.
The Basics
- Race: Goblin
- Ability Scores: 12, 18, 14, 10, 10, 8. Boost that Dex score. The other scores all matter to some extent.
Skill Notes: Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist and Sense Motive are all pretty valuable skills here so we'll assume those stay near max.
Basic Equipment: Longbow, chain shirt, and rapier as a backup weapon, alternate material arrows for overcoming damage reduction.
Magical Gear Goals: An Energy Bow would be fantastic, as would Keen on said bow. Attack bonus and Init (since not having acted leaves most foes vulerable to a sneak attack) are key and both stem from Dex so boost that as well as getting other attack and or Init boosting gear. Alternative magical amunition, classic comic-book archer style. Bursting amunition is surprisingly GOOD in the hands of this build with all the crit mods, and makes for a decent way to deal with elementals (get bursting ammo of the appropriate types).
The Build.
Build Stub: Swashbuckler 14, Targeteer Fighter 2, Rogue 4
1 – Swashbuckler – (Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot)
*
[sblock]Taking advantage of the really high Dex in a somewhat flexible open that is playable, even if it won't stand up to the Greatsword using Water Orc Barbarian.[/sblock]
2 – Swashbuckler – (Grace +1)
3 – Swashbuckler – (Insightful strike)(Rapid Shot) *
[sblock]The extra attack is great, no question, this also keys us up for the upcoming Targeteer ability.
[/sblock]
4 – Swashbuckler -
5 – Swashbuckler – (Dodge bonus +1)
6 – Fighter – (Sniper)(Woodland Archer *
[sblock]The ability to sacrifice attacks for an increased chance to crit is good at level 6 since iterative attacks are less likely to hit. This ability improves dramatically at 12 and 17 when third and fourth iteratives come online since they are increasingly less likely to yield hits.Woodland Sniper is pound for pound one of the best buys to look for in an Archery build. It does so much, including making that iterative attack more useful.
[/sblock]
7 – Fighter – (Arrow swarm) *
[sblock]Add two more attacks for a -5, nothing indicates this doens't stack with Rapid Shot, seems a bad idea perhaps to take -7. At times it will be strong though, when fighting low AC foes or extroardinarily high AC foes (if only a 20 hits anyway).[/sblock]8 – Swashbuckler
9 – Rogue – (Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding) (Craven)
*
[sblock]From zero sneak attack to 1d6+9 in a single level. Craven, you so good for this stuff.[/sblock]
10 – Rogue – (Evasion)
11 – Rogue – (Sneak attack +2d6, death's ruin) *
[sblock]This makes fighting undead a lot less horrible, yay![/sblock]
12 – Swashbuckler – (Acrobatic charge) (Telling Blow) *
[sblock]This build lacks the methods normally used to get into a sneak attack position, it however doens't lack ways to generate critical hits.[/sblock]13 – Swashbuckler – (Improved flanking)
14 – Swashbuckler -
15 – Swashbuckler – (Dodge bonus +2, sneak attack +7d6, grace +2)(Daring Outlaw)
*
[sblock]Another really gigantic leap in sneak attack damage from 2d6+14 to 7d6+15. In a team that enables sneak attack well I'd consider this before Telling Blow, otherwise keep this order.
[/sblock]
16 – Swashbuckler – (Lucky)
17 – Swashbuckler – (Sneak attack +8d6)
18 – Swashbuckler – (Acrobatic skill mastery) (Martial Study) *
[sblock]Cloak of Deception is another major enabler for Sneak Attack damaage. Once per combat this enables a full round of high damage.
[/sblock]
19 – Swashbuckler – (Weakening critical, sneak attack +9d6) *
[sblock]This just tickles me in this build which already has such a high focus on scoring critical hits the synergy makes for a decent pinnacle ability.
[/sblock]
20 – Rogue – (Disruptive Attack) *
[sblock]Not fantastic but an alright ability. This is especially good when dealing with crit immune targets outside of undead.
[/sblock]
Snapshot: Precision damage and rapid shot paired for quick beat downs within 30'. Longer ranged attacks can be used to soften up exceptionally tough (or crit immune) targets or deal with overwhelming numbers of less powerful foes.
Overall Strengths: Impressive precision damage (9d6+20) and a solid number of attacks (4+up to 3 without haste) with good attack bonus (19 BAB and possible 34 Dex with gear). Modular ranged attack modes taking extra attacks and or improving threat range in exchange for less accurate attacks. Precision damage still works in melee, as well Improved flanking and acrobatic charge help keep this build viable even if forced to fight in melee. Strong Fort save (+13 Base and probably a +5 Con bonus) and Ref save (10 Base and 12 Dex bonus), Escape Artist to avoid bad grapple situations a small low-ish strength warrior type might get into. Surprisingly strong social utility with Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
Overall Weaknesses: The classic melee character flaw (a poor will save), is further exadurated by Craven and this makes the Bow-laster quite vaulnerable to certain spells and attacks. Reliance on sneak attack for damage means that you really need to make sure you've got alternative amunitions especially for dealing with targets
immune to precision damage.
Variants: I like goblin for the Dex bonus, Darkvision and lack of a crippling downside. Strongheart Halfling or Human would give more feat options and Whispergnome would be a minor reflavour with most of the same abilities. If using Strongheart Halfling or Human additional feat options open up.
There you have it. A traditional melee archetype turned into a "glass cannon" style archer. Effective range from 0' to over 1000' with optimal range against most targets in the 30' zone. Simple and effective with a variety of tactical choices to be made.
Originally posted by Pheonix042:
This is interesting for me, particularly considering the ongoing discussions going on for one of my PCs.
I have a few questions.
1) Would you still consider this viable using crossbows? How would you change it (assuming easy modifications are available)?
2) Is this likely more powerful than taking 14 levels of warblade just for time stands still and the mongoose maneuvers?
3) Would blood-in-the-water in feat form be a good pick-up for this build? Would it likely outshine assassin's stance?
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
The idea is to kill a target before Blood would be very useful. You could use Crossbow if running Human or Strongheart Halfling (for the bonus feat to reload faster). The trick about this vs the Warblade rout (I spearheaded The Heavy Weapons Elf as well), is smoothness of build. This build is "online" at 1, and shooting stuff at every level of build. Break points where this build gets its best abilities are probably 6, 9, 12, 15 and 19. Where the last level isn't very important (like at all) tacking on a Swordsage or Warblade level at the end, maybe even giving up a targeteer ability (Arrow Volley?) and making it two levels could work well. Doing so could net you access to Dancing Mongoose and a variety of other effects.
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
Actually the more I think about it, a two level Swordsage Dip is GOOD in place of 1 Fighter and 1 Rogue. Take your first Rogue at 7 then Swordsage 1 and 9 (This will get a pile of goodies including Cloak of Deception), the final Swordsage level can show up at 20, or as early as 16 (14/2+2=9, so you can get Dancing Mongoose at 16). The feat you get back from Cloak of Deception can go into Adaptive Style. This assumes a game with no XP penalty as you'll have 1/2/3/14 as levels.
Originally posted by Pheonix042:
It suddenly occured to me to dip rogue and grab craven with the sniper I'm helping with, netting 23.5 average SA damage (almost half the total this build grabs) without interfering with the ability to still pick up Time Stands Still at 20th, or the mongoose's. This could actually be more powerful than either build, though I'm not sure (haven't run the numbers on it).
It amounts to a hybrid style, picking up some of the insane sneak attack damage of this build, but applying it to many more attacks.
Unfortunatly, I'm not sure how I'm going to fit in 3+ iterations of Font of Inspiration PLUS craven PLUS woodland archer, all in the last 11 levels (with 3 feats to burn, really).
I'm going to have to cut some things.
Isn't woodland archer a fighter bonus feat? I smell an excellent use of the Heroics spell for a character with lots of UMD ranks.
Unfortunatly, that still only limits it to two font feats. Is that even worth it? If not, should I dump factotum and pick up rogue+craven at level 1, in place of something else?
What about improved precise shot?
This is hard...
Originally posted by Andarious-Rosethorn:
The crossbow idea now really has me thinking... you could get a lot more mileage out of Telling Blow that way. A rebuild may be on its way.
Probably something like this
[sblock]HumanRogue (Craven, Point Blank Shot)Rogue
Rogue (Death's Ruin) (Telling Blow)Rogue (Disruptive Attack)Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)Swashbuckler (Grace +1) (Daring Outlaw, 3d6 SA)Fighter (Targeteer:Sniper)Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike, 4d6 SA)Swashbuckler (Rapid Reload)Swashbuckler (Dodge bonus +1, 5d6 SA)SwashbucklerSwashbuckler (Rapid Shot) (Acrobatic charge)Swashbuckler (Improved flanking, 6d6 SA, grace +2)SwashbucklerSwashbuckler (Dodge bonus +2, 7d6 SA) (Woodland Archer)Swashbuckler (Lucky)Swordsage (Quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus
esert Wind), (Rabid Wolf Strike, *Blood in the Water, Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Cloak of Deception, Wind Stride, Sudden Leap)Swashbuckler (Adaptive Style)Swashbuckler (Acrobatic skill mastery)Swashbuckler (Weakening Critical) *This was a tough call, either adding Str damage which can be "Super Effective" or grabbing Swordsage level 2 for more SA Dice/Damage[/sblock]
