Originally posted by betasquirrell:
A new edition is coming around, and all our builds will soon be outdated, so I thought I'd put up some really outdated optimization - from 2E. In the 2nd edition DMG, there was a table for creating custom classes as an optional rule. The gist of it was that you went through tables and cherry-picked what you wanted, and each selection gave you a number. At the end of class creation, you added all those numbers together and got a total (which was probably quite large).
You took this total and used it as a scalar on the DMG's sample xp table, and you got the xp progression for your class. This allowed you to play your 'I can do ANYTHING' character, but you would take about ...30-ish times the amount of xp to level up as your fighter buddy. (Yes, I checked).
Well, this was one of the few places in the 2E manuals that allowed for real customization besides race selection, spell picking, and ability scores. “So,” I thought, “it must be breakable!” Boy was I right! Once I figured out that there were no limits, I was able to construct the following class, using the minimums for everything:
The Punster - 2E
#Reason
Race: Human only
-4 Combat and saves:
0 As 0-level human (terrible, and they never improve)
-1 Armor: None allowed
-1.5 Weapons: Limited (4 total weapons for class, none can do more than 1d6)
+2 Hit Dice: d4 until level 9, +1 per level thereafter (minimum allowed)
-2 Alignment: Lawful Good
-1 Special: Can possess only 6 magic items
-.5 Special: Must carry all possessions
-1 Special: Cannot associate with bards (I dunno, I don't like bards.)
-.5 Special: Must donate 10% of all treasure
+9 May learn and cast 3 schools of magic: Necromancy, Conjuration/Summoning, Illusion
--------------------------------------
-0.5 Total
What does this mean? Well, assuming you play a Human Punster 1, at level 1 you are just a limited wizard. But you actually have 100 more xp than the next level requirement at start of play! Because the scalar is negative, your xp table actually got inverted, so at 0xp you have 100 more than was necessary for level 2 and 14,000 more than was necessary for level 9, meaning that you start the game at an arbitrary level!
In fact, the xp for level 99 would be, based on the chart’s instructions to increment the base by 30,000 for each level past 10, (30,000*89+28000)*(-0.5)=-1349000, which means that you have completely eclipsed level 99 by the beginning of character creation! And because you started with 0 xp, and didn't gain it in an encounter, you are immune to the rule that states: 'you can't gain enough xp in one encounter to advance more than one level'.
So, what do you get? Instant access to the highest powered summoning spells, the prismatic array, and Wish (along with the sweet necromancy and illusion spells). And, here's the good bit, instant access to 10th level magic from 'Player's Option: Spells and Powers' (or whatever it was called).
Originally posted by fwib:
I never considered taking the multiplier down below 0.25 - negative xp to level is pure cheese.
Originally posted by Ed-Zero:
Since we're talking about 2nd Edition, got any info on playing HackMaster? I play weekly and we're quickly getting into a position that we will die or at least some of us.
Right now I'm a Fighter/Cleric (most of the group is dual classed so it's nice to level at the same time) and since we might die, I've been looking extensively at the Monk class. It seems pretty crazy, being able to do more damage than a fighter with a weapon pretty much at any given level.
Any ideas on how to optimize it in any way? (I don't have access to the Hackmaster DMG or MM)
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Ed-Zero: Sorry, can't help you - I never played hackmaster. As I recall, though, the Cleric Handbook monk was pretty nice.
Originally posted by fwib:
I can't find my original notes, but I think I picked:
Human-only(+0), RogueCV(-1), Best Saving Throws(+0), d3 HD(+0), All Armour(+0), Limited Weapons(-1.5), 1 hp/level beyond 9th(+.5), One Initial Proficiency Slot(+.25) Cast Any Priest Spell(+8), Two Alignment Restrictions(-2), Cannot Keep More Than Can Carry(-.5), Donate 10%(-.5), Ethos(-1), Cannot Associate with class+alignment(-2)
Total(0.25)
Ahhh... memories.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
This is like DC Zero epic spells, and then using the SR seed to make DC negative epic spells.
Bravo, and congrats.
Personally, I have a 2nd Edition based build, that I'm waiting for 4th Edition to come out.
RENAME your build, period.
And how exactly do you plan on grabbing the power(s) of the gods; all of them; and more ?!
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Did I beat you to the punch? I don't mind sharing the credit for 2E's ascensions if you want to incorporate this (assuming your method is different and we didn't think of the same thing).
If you've got a build, though, keep in mind that I reach level Infinity at 0xp, so you'll have to ascend really fast. Of course, if you use the same trick you might be able to get there first, assuming you have some clever combo.
Oh, yeah. Did anyone else notice that you can add ANY ABILITY for a +3 mod? As in, Manipulate Form 2E style?
By the way, Fwib, what DMG were you using? According to mine, there is no d3 and you are missing something like -11 for 'cannot associate with any class or alignment.' As it is, you can associate with any class/alignment except two. So you have more leeway than you think!
Originally posted by fwib:
Using TSR 2160 AD&D Dungeon Master(r) Guide published April 1995, the black one with muscular humanoids on the front smashing through a door.
I didn't consider applying 'cannot associate' more than once each for alignment and class, since it would be a) cheesier and b) it restricts the rest of your party and c) it doesn't say you can in the book I have.
If I get the chance to play 2e again, I shall certainly try to squeeze in a custom-class character though, even if I can't get away with a ludicrously low multiplier.
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Ah. I'm using an older DMG. That would explain it.
Originally posted by NiteCyper:
Omfg, this reminds me of the coding/mechanic for Pokemon leveling in RBY. Something about negative levels causing you to insta-jump to level 100 because of some random coding... Err, just search the trick. It involves Mew at level 7?
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
That's probably integer looping. That might be the issue. I remember, back in my old CSci class, learning about inefficiency, where the number of Fibonacci calls outpaced Java's integer class, showing negative calls. Another time, my lists would perpetually show strange numbers of held items and (on one occasion) a simple chess board was described as infinitely large. It got to be a pain in the neck when I had to write some calculator program and kept hearing that 20,000 + 20,000 was negative.
Originally posted by NiteCyper:
Um... Okay.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
Hey, the computer guys 'Solved' Checkers. All answers/moves now known = always stalemate.
ALL nite cyper ?!
My 2nd Edition DMG has the different # on the cover than what Fwib has.
BS - can't say I understand your method yet, but ...
it looks to me like you have:
Some Infinite things, and Some Infinite Casting.
Good stuff.
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Yeah. I think I have infinite stats too, but I forget how...I think there's an epic thingy to get them. But yeah, I've got infinite . I think that's enough. Anything a caster can do, I can do (and with Epic whats-it-called I can do a lot more). I actually have a nice THACO, and my Saves (while sucky) can be improved ad nauseum IIRC.
As to DMGs, I have the one with a wizard casting some sort of spell (MM?) at a Great Wyrm. I used to have the other one with the kick-in-the-door guys, but I gave it away.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
bump
Originally posted by Chemus:
Infinite stats would be accessible via infinite wish spells, IIRC. 2e's been a while for me.
Outside of outright godhood, as I recall, you only get access to 9th level spells as a wizard-type caster.
10th level spells are relegated to gods normally, I think. Your wishes, however would own!
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
bump again ... don't want to lose this one, even if it's not really d20-ish.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
This was WSoD.
But now it's not ... well good.
2nd Edition, but obviously CO.
Originally posted by jojolagger:
race:human only 1 cheapest
Combat value used:wiard 1 bad but scales up with lvl
saves:wizard 1 bad but scales up with lvl
HP: 1d3 0 cheapest
armor:none -1 cheapest
weapons: limited -1.5 cheapest
HP at lvl 9+: 1 0.5 cheapest
must be good -1 cheaper
must be neutral -1 cheaper
must carry weath -0.5 easy due to next one
must donate all treasure -5 with bonusest who cares
cannot own more than 6 magic items -1 easy due to above
cannot associate with evil -1 cheaper
spell schools (Necromancy, Conjuration/Summoning, Illusion) 9 magic
total exp multiplier (-0.5) Infinite lvl at zero exp
end result character NG exp 0 lvl infinity, THACO - infinity, awesome Saves, 3 spell schools, Infinity HP, no treasure but hey who cares
P.S. formating died when I posted
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
2e
and it's version of
Pun-pun
=
WIN !!
( a.k.a. bump )
Originally posted by Endarire:
Thanks for the post!
And smile! Jesus loves you!
A new edition is coming around, and all our builds will soon be outdated, so I thought I'd put up some really outdated optimization - from 2E. In the 2nd edition DMG, there was a table for creating custom classes as an optional rule. The gist of it was that you went through tables and cherry-picked what you wanted, and each selection gave you a number. At the end of class creation, you added all those numbers together and got a total (which was probably quite large).
You took this total and used it as a scalar on the DMG's sample xp table, and you got the xp progression for your class. This allowed you to play your 'I can do ANYTHING' character, but you would take about ...30-ish times the amount of xp to level up as your fighter buddy. (Yes, I checked).
Well, this was one of the few places in the 2E manuals that allowed for real customization besides race selection, spell picking, and ability scores. “So,” I thought, “it must be breakable!” Boy was I right! Once I figured out that there were no limits, I was able to construct the following class, using the minimums for everything:
The Punster - 2E
#Reason
Race: Human only
-4 Combat and saves:
0 As 0-level human (terrible, and they never improve)
-1 Armor: None allowed
-1.5 Weapons: Limited (4 total weapons for class, none can do more than 1d6)
+2 Hit Dice: d4 until level 9, +1 per level thereafter (minimum allowed)
-2 Alignment: Lawful Good
-1 Special: Can possess only 6 magic items
-.5 Special: Must carry all possessions
-1 Special: Cannot associate with bards (I dunno, I don't like bards.)
-.5 Special: Must donate 10% of all treasure
+9 May learn and cast 3 schools of magic: Necromancy, Conjuration/Summoning, Illusion
--------------------------------------
-0.5 Total
What does this mean? Well, assuming you play a Human Punster 1, at level 1 you are just a limited wizard. But you actually have 100 more xp than the next level requirement at start of play! Because the scalar is negative, your xp table actually got inverted, so at 0xp you have 100 more than was necessary for level 2 and 14,000 more than was necessary for level 9, meaning that you start the game at an arbitrary level!
In fact, the xp for level 99 would be, based on the chart’s instructions to increment the base by 30,000 for each level past 10, (30,000*89+28000)*(-0.5)=-1349000, which means that you have completely eclipsed level 99 by the beginning of character creation! And because you started with 0 xp, and didn't gain it in an encounter, you are immune to the rule that states: 'you can't gain enough xp in one encounter to advance more than one level'.
So, what do you get? Instant access to the highest powered summoning spells, the prismatic array, and Wish (along with the sweet necromancy and illusion spells). And, here's the good bit, instant access to 10th level magic from 'Player's Option: Spells and Powers' (or whatever it was called).
Originally posted by fwib:
I never considered taking the multiplier down below 0.25 - negative xp to level is pure cheese.
Originally posted by Ed-Zero:
Since we're talking about 2nd Edition, got any info on playing HackMaster? I play weekly and we're quickly getting into a position that we will die or at least some of us.
Right now I'm a Fighter/Cleric (most of the group is dual classed so it's nice to level at the same time) and since we might die, I've been looking extensively at the Monk class. It seems pretty crazy, being able to do more damage than a fighter with a weapon pretty much at any given level.
Any ideas on how to optimize it in any way? (I don't have access to the Hackmaster DMG or MM)
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Heh. Thanks. My first idea was to get the multiplier to be 0, but then I thought that if that was the case you'd still have to go through one encounter to get that 1 xp.
Ed-Zero: Sorry, can't help you - I never played hackmaster. As I recall, though, the Cleric Handbook monk was pretty nice.
Originally posted by fwib:
I can't find my original notes, but I think I picked:
Human-only(+0), RogueCV(-1), Best Saving Throws(+0), d3 HD(+0), All Armour(+0), Limited Weapons(-1.5), 1 hp/level beyond 9th(+.5), One Initial Proficiency Slot(+.25) Cast Any Priest Spell(+8), Two Alignment Restrictions(-2), Cannot Keep More Than Can Carry(-.5), Donate 10%(-.5), Ethos(-1), Cannot Associate with class+alignment(-2)
Total(0.25)
Ahhh... memories.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
And the FCC ruled in his favor, because the f-bomb didn't refer to sex or scatological stuff ...
This is like DC Zero epic spells, and then using the SR seed to make DC negative epic spells.
Bravo, and congrats.
Personally, I have a 2nd Edition based build, that I'm waiting for 4th Edition to come out.
RENAME your build, period.
And how exactly do you plan on grabbing the power(s) of the gods; all of them; and more ?!
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Thanks!
By using rules from Legends and Lore, which, IIRC, had rules about becoming a demigod that I should easily be able to complete with my p0werz.
Did I beat you to the punch?
I don't mind sharing the credit for 2E's ascensions if you want to incorporate this (assuming your method is different and we didn't think of the same thing). If you've got a build, though, keep in mind that I reach level Infinity at 0xp, so you'll have to ascend really fast. Of course, if you use the same trick you might be able to get there first, assuming you have some clever combo.
Oh, yeah. Did anyone else notice that you can add ANY ABILITY for a +3 mod? As in, Manipulate Form 2E style?
By the way, Fwib, what DMG were you using? According to mine, there is no d3 and you are missing something like -11 for 'cannot associate with any class or alignment.' As it is, you can associate with any class/alignment except two. So you have more leeway than you think!
Originally posted by fwib:
Using TSR 2160 AD&D Dungeon Master(r) Guide published April 1995, the black one with muscular humanoids on the front smashing through a door.
I didn't consider applying 'cannot associate' more than once each for alignment and class, since it would be a) cheesier and b) it restricts the rest of your party and c) it doesn't say you can in the book I have.
If I get the chance to play 2e again, I shall certainly try to squeeze in a custom-class character though, even if I can't get away with a ludicrously low multiplier.
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Ah. I'm using an older DMG. That would explain it.
Originally posted by NiteCyper:
Omfg, this reminds me of the coding/mechanic for Pokemon leveling in RBY. Something about negative levels causing you to insta-jump to level 100 because of some random coding... Err, just search the trick. It involves Mew at level 7?
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
That's probably integer looping. That might be the issue. I remember, back in my old CSci class, learning about inefficiency, where the number of Fibonacci calls outpaced Java's integer class, showing negative calls. Another time, my lists would perpetually show strange numbers of held items and (on one occasion) a simple chess board was described as infinitely large. It got to be a pain in the neck when I had to write some calculator program and kept hearing that 20,000 + 20,000 was negative.
Originally posted by NiteCyper:
Um... Okay.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
Hey, the computer guys 'Solved' Checkers. All answers/moves now known = always stalemate.
ALL nite cyper ?!
My 2nd Edition DMG has the different # on the cover than what Fwib has.
BS - can't say I understand your method yet, but ...
it looks to me like you have:
Some Infinite things, and Some Infinite Casting.
Good stuff.
Originally posted by betasquirrell:
Yeah. I think I have infinite stats too, but I forget how...I think there's an epic thingy to get them. But yeah, I've got infinite . I think that's enough. Anything a caster can do, I can do (and with Epic whats-it-called I can do a lot more). I actually have a nice THACO, and my Saves (while sucky) can be improved ad nauseum IIRC.
As to DMGs, I have the one with a wizard casting some sort of spell (MM?) at a Great Wyrm. I used to have the other one with the kick-in-the-door guys, but I gave it away.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
bump
Originally posted by Chemus:
Infinite stats would be accessible via infinite wish spells, IIRC. 2e's been a while for me.
Outside of outright godhood, as I recall, you only get access to 9th level spells as a wizard-type caster.
10th level spells are relegated to gods normally, I think. Your wishes, however would own!
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
bump again ... don't want to lose this one, even if it's not really d20-ish.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
This was WSoD.
But now it's not ... well good.
2nd Edition, but obviously CO.
Originally posted by jojolagger:
race:human only 1 cheapest
Combat value used:wiard 1 bad but scales up with lvl
saves:wizard 1 bad but scales up with lvl
HP: 1d3 0 cheapest
armor:none -1 cheapest
weapons: limited -1.5 cheapest
HP at lvl 9+: 1 0.5 cheapest
must be good -1 cheaper
must be neutral -1 cheaper
must carry weath -0.5 easy due to next one
must donate all treasure -5 with bonusest who cares
cannot own more than 6 magic items -1 easy due to above
cannot associate with evil -1 cheaper
spell schools (Necromancy, Conjuration/Summoning, Illusion) 9 magic
total exp multiplier (-0.5) Infinite lvl at zero exp
end result character NG exp 0 lvl infinity, THACO - infinity, awesome Saves, 3 spell schools, Infinity HP, no treasure but hey who cares
P.S. formating died when I posted
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
2e
and it's version of
Pun-pun
=
WIN !!
( a.k.a. bump )
Originally posted by Endarire:
Thanks for the post!
And smile! Jesus loves you!
Last edited:
