Night at the Roxbury: Tricks for Multiple Defender Parties (by GelationousOctahedron)

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:


What do you do if your small party has two defenders? What if you have even more than two? Here are some tips for forcing mark punishment and for powers and tricks that work well when you have more than one defender in a party. Each one varies by class since defenders can defend both through powers and class features, bur this should get you started:
Focus on powers that let you defend or punish even without marking. This lets your ally punish through his marking feature. Often forced movement and status effects like slow or immobilized will let you do this.

If you do plan to mark often, then make your mark punishment more severe than normal. With multiple defenders the DM may be forced to violate your mark if he wants to attack anyone that round if another defender has him tied up without marking. Only one defender probably wants to do this, but again it depends on what classes you are playing.

If your defender ally has long range punishment, through their mark mechanic or otherwise, consider forced movement. Most defenders can push/follow, slide, or pull fairly often. If you have an ally that can punish at range like an assault swordmage, chaladin, lightning rushing battlemind, etc., then forcing the enemy next to you and away from them can help to trigger the punishemnt.

Take powers that force enemies you haven't marked to attack you or someone else instead the ally that marked them. Lightning Rush and Dimensional Vortex are two of the most notable examples of this. With lightning rush for instance you can trigger a warden's use of warden's fury, a paladin's divine challenge, or a fighter's combat challenge.

Immediate attacks that punish enemies for going after your allies are your friend. This is something that almost all defender builds can do and it doesn't hurt if more than one defender loads up on these. Often it even works better that way.

Many of these tricks are even more viable with hybrid builds. Assault swordmages improve the best part of their mark punishment when they hybird with a big hitting class like warlock, barbarian, or ranger. Hybrid chaladins can load up on mark punishment and get ranged powers from a class like warlock, cleric, or sorcerer so they can maintain their challange at range. Hybrid wardens can focus on the powers that isolate enemies from other PCs without marking to let allies focus on marking and mark punishment.

You might want to look into a non standard weapon. Either going for a big superior two hander to boost your damage if you are going to be hitting hard with immediate/OA powers or going for a reach weapon of some sort might be a good idea. A paladin can hide behind the other defender maintaining divine challenge with a reach weapon for instance.

This thread and its title were inspired by an earlier thread and comment when a DM was asking about what to do with his new 5 person party where 3 people were playing a paladin, battlemind, and warden.

Note on power recommendations. These are not always the best powers to take for your build and this isn't meant to be a comprehensive guide to each defender. They are sometimes powers that don't normally get blue or skyblue rating that you should take a look at for multidefender parties because they have a niche use when another defender is in the party.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Fighters, Paladins, and Wardens

Fighters (weaponmasters)

Tactics

A lot of your best features come with combat challenge so you might need to adjust for this since you tend to punish adjacent enemies and enemies you have marked. The good thing is that you have total control over who you mark and don't mark and you can still defend even when not marking. What you lack for in class features you make up for with a wide selection of powers that will help your allies to punish targets you have stuck next to you. You have a couple at will forced movement powers and you have a lot of other powers that can slow, immobilize, prone, or force move.

You can do polearm or flail shennanigans as well since you have less trouble qualifying for the needed feats. Fighters have two main directions they can go that they need to pick from early on: reach weapon (probably glaive, spiked chain, or great spear) or 1-H talent with shield. A lot of your potential powers require you to be using a shield and a few require a reach weapon and polearm master is a good path to look at. You can also go with a big 2-H non reach weapon if you want to sacrifice trade some control for damage and their is a little support for dual wielders.

If you are going shield consider the phalanx warrior feat, along with the various shield utility powers like Phalanx Leader, Stalwart Guard, and Interposing Shield to protect allies who mark your enemies.

Another good fighter trick with multiple defenders is playing a brawler fighter. A brawler fighter can pin down an enemy very well without ever needing to mark him, which means he can work effectively with ranged punishment or aura defenders.

Powers to consider

Footwork Lure At will.
This lets you move an enemy marked by another defender away from that defender and puts you in between. This is one of the best fighter at will powers even without another defender in the party, but I would almost always take this in a 2 defender party.

Tide of Iron At will. If I wasn't taking Footwork lure, I would be taking this instead. Push with a shift.

Grappling Strike At will. Grapplers can tie up an enemy without marking him. If you go this route, you will really focus on this.

Knockdown Assault At will. At will proning means the enemy will have a hard time getting away without you having to mark it. At higher levels you can get proning fairly easily from things like flail expertise or world serpents grasp so you might retrain it out later, but for low level fighters it is sometimes a decent choice.

Shield Riposte 1 (encounter)
Fighters have a couple powers like this that require you to have a shield and punish enemies who attack allies next to you. You don't get enchantment of expertise bonus, but it targets fortitude. This pushes with a shift, but it is a reaction power.

Glowering Threat
Strong penalty for enemies that attack your allies, but doesn't mark.

Get over Here 2 This pulls a marking ally away from an enemy and lets you get next to them.

Immediate Vengence 3 This one is only ok. It doesn't get any enchantment or expertise bonus, but its an interrupt that targets fortitude and is only level 3. Weakens as an interrupt with some damage when someone attacks a neighboring ally.

Reaver's Hook 3 It can shift/pull an enemy off of a marking ally if you are using an axe or pick

Parry and riposte 3 A reaction to an enemy missing an ally.

Hounding Longarm 5 A reach weapon power that lets you punish enemies who at attack your allies at range 2, which is normally something fighters struggle with some.

Pinning Smash 5 Fighters not using a reach weapon should consider this. It immobilizes an enemy as long as it is next to you without you needing to mark it. Lets allies load up on ranged mark punishment.

Knights Challenge 6 this is a no attack enemy pulling power.

Come and Get It 7 This is already probably the best fighter powers there is. It also encourages enemies violate allies marks without requiring you to mark.

Savage Parry 7 This interrrupt punishes enemies who attack adjacent allies. Unfortunately the punishment is not that great and it is the same level as come and get it.

Shield Bearer's vendetta 13 This is one of the better shield interrupt powers since it is multitarget with shift.

Defender's Gambit 15 Provokes attacks from enemies marked by allies

Dust Storm Assault 15 Mediocre close burst 1 with a stance that lets you shift your speed and make a proning attack as an OA against anyone who attacks or moves adjacent to an ally, marked or not.

Cruelest Chains 17 This is a reaction power that gives the enemy the choice to shift next to you or give you a boost to your next damage roll against them.

Tap and Counterstrike 17 You need to be dual wielding, but it lets you punish enemies at short range.

Strike Of The Watchful Guard 19 Attack adjacent enemies who attack your allies for the encounter.

Undeniable Challenge 22 Up to two targets have to attack you for a round. Requires they be marked when you use it, but allies can then override the mark.

Turnabout Riposte 23 This interrupt lets you shift and attack an enemy who attacks an ally. Effect reduces the damage.

Warrior's Urging 23 Upgraded come and get it.

Gash and Goad 27 A good way to pull an enemy off a marking defender.

Final Challenge 29 Reaction that forces an emeny within 4 to move to you so you can attack them or you get to charge them.

Knights

Not as good as weaponmaster fighters, but better than cavaliers at least. Defend the line is a stance that slows, so that works for helping allies with slow exploits. Hammer hands gives you some forced movement so that can push enemies away from defenders that marked them and set up punishment for enemies coming close to you. Bludgeoning staff and Staggering Hammer both open up options. The fact that they don't mark targets means that a half-elf with Eldritch Strike can qualify for White Lotus Master Riposte, while one with either Virtuous Strike or a tiefling with Wrath of the Crimson Legion can use Heartwarder's level 16 feature to penalize attacks against them.

Paladins

Tactics

Your divine challenge and many times divine sanction can be applied from a distance and the punishment occurs from a distance. To sustain divine challenge over a long time you either need to be adjacent to the enemy or you need to attack it, but you can do that through ranged attacks, which paladins have some, or you can do it through thrown weapon powers or ranged implement powers you get from another class. The classic half-elf dilletante eyebite trick works here since you can eyebite the enemy from range and that makes it hard for the DM to attack you, even while marked by you. But at this point you can get good ranged attacks from dilletante, your theme, or through regular multiclassing.

Chaladins/baladins tend to do better than staladins in power selection for these situations, although straladins can more afford to focus on damage boosts for big hits. Straladins generally want to go for the big weapon powers since that makes them a bigger threat without forcing them to be sticky. Another big difference is that charisma powers tend to pull enemies, while strength powers tend to push enemies.

Powers to consider

Enfeebling Strike With power of trickery you or an ally can shift away with this at will. And if you mark and shift the enemy is at -4 to hit your defender ally next to him with potenital divine challenge punishment. If your ally marked it, it is next to you alone with potential punishment from your ally.

Virtuous Strike This at will is here because with Power of Arcana you can you do WLR and WLMR tricks with it. Its a hefty feat investment, but potentially worth it.

Bolstering Strike With power of earth this at will slows if you are going for slow/immobilization synergy.

Fortune Spurned Smite 3 This forces the enemy to moves its speed when it takes damage, which will provoke OAs and make it harder to attack you the next round. Its str or cha.

Price of cowardness 7 Interrupt that blinds an adjacent enemy who attacks your ally.

Knightly Intercession 9 Interrupt for staladins that lets you pull an enemy 10 squares away from you when it attacks an ally.

Ray of Reprisal 9 Close burst 5 interrupt when an ally is hit. I like knightly intercession more, but this is for chaladins.

Compel Obedience 13 a Single target shift/pull for a chaladin

Letherna's Hounds 13 A close burst pulling/prone power. Solid non-mark defending for a chaladin

Avatar of Undaunted Bravery 15 Straladins get to pull an enemy each round.

Liberation 16 an ally pulling and healing power

Demand Respect
23 A close burst 10 interrupt for chaladins that prones and blinds when they attack an ally.

Champions Call 23 a close burst 5 that automatically pulls multiple targets.

Discipline the unruly 25 The sustainable effect from the attack blinds and does radiant damage when any nearby enemy attacks an ally.




Cavaliers

Cavaliers are probably the trickiest defender to work into a multidefender party and would be my last choice for a second or third defender. They don't bring much to the table. Their defender's aura does not work on marked enemies so at least you will not be overriding marks. Your powers are not good for a multi defender team. There are somethings that will work, but generally you will sit there while your allies force the DM to trigger your Righteous Radiance.

Wardens

Tactics

Wardens generally more defend through their powers more than through class features. Your class features make you tough, even for a defender, and unlike most other defenders you can usually only mark adjacent enemies. Your defender tricks come from things like having an at will melee 2 pulling power, being able to create difficult terrain, shifting towards enemies, and by immobilizing and slowing enemies.

For several of your defender class features to work you need to have enemies marked. Warden's Fury and Warden's Grasp require the target to be marked. The second wind punishment for stormheart and wildblood require your enemies to be marked, but the second wind bonus for earthstrength and lifeblood does not. Wildblood second winding is serious debuff that will almost force enemies to target you and after second winding allies can override your marks on the target.

Powers to consider

You are generally going for powers that put enemies next to you without necessarilly marking them. This includes forced movement and you shifting towards them. Once next to you, you will want difficult terrain, slowing, dazing, and immobilizing powers so they can't get away and are forced to attack you or not attack at all.

Thorn Strike
At will This can pull enemies marked by someone else next to you. Already one of the better warden at wills.

Weight of the Earth
This is an at will slow. Again, one of the better warden at wills already.

Grasping Winds 1 (enc) If you don't have thorn strike, you will want this mass pulling power.

Hungry Earth 1 (enc) difficult terrain power

Form of Winter's Herald 1 (daily) Difficult terrain and an immobilizing attack

Earth Shaking Rend 5 zone of difficult terrain that prones.

Rampant forest
5 This lets you generate a lot of difficult terrain for your enemies.

Guardian's Pounce 7 This is a solid warden power already. A reaction that lets you shift next to an enemy who enters a square next to an ally. A hit lowers its attack. Forced movement should trigger it.

Mountains Stature 7 I would be reluctant to not go with guardians pounce, but Earthstrength Wardens with reach weapons can pull multiple targets next to them with this power from 3 squares away.

Stalactite Hook 13 If you didn't get thorn strike then this is ok. It also slows so it is kind of a combined weight of the earth and thorn strike with more damage.

Drown in Mud 13 Another difficult terrain power, with immobilizing.

Form of the Crushing Mountain 15 This daily form makes it hard to escape from you and hard to damage you. And the attack is a close burst 3 pull.

Leap of the relentless hunter. 17 Sort of like Guradian's pounce, but it has to be marked.

Wardens Lure 17 Another close burst pull, followed by a slide.

Form of the Entangling Spider 25 A big difficult terrain area around you for the encounter with an restraining power.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Battleminds, Swordmages, and Barbarians

Battleminds

Powers to consider

Every other one has tactics first, but with battleminds your powers are your tactics.  Lightning rush being the big one.

Conductive Defense 1 Punishment for attacking allies without marking

Allies to Enemies 1 (daily) This makes an enemy attack someone besides your defender.  It won't trigger your mark punishment, but will trigger your allies theirs

Lodestone Lure
3 Excellent pulling power with range or melee 2-5, without overriding marks.  And with extra proning/stickiness with augments.

Spectral Legion 3 immobilizes.  Sticky without marking at low levels.

Lightning Rush 7 Interrupt that hits enemies hard for attacking an ally and forces the enemy to trigger whatever mark punishment is coming to them.  The key power for you. 

Dazzling Assault
17 If you do mark an enemy, this interrupt slides and immobilizes them.

Ruinous Grasp
17 This lets you force move and then immobilize an enemy next to your ally.

Might of the Ogre 23 Proning and provokes OA when standing up.  You like provoking OAs.

Psychic Hammer 25 A daily Dominate (save ends).  Defenders normally don't get domination straight up without hybridding or through tricks like Royal Command of Asmodeus.

Mind of Mirrors 27 a dominate when augmented

Tactics

Thankfully battleminds do some of their best work by marking one target and then attacking another one.  You don’t need to be sticky to be effective and want your enemies to attack your allies.  You also have a lot of powers that force move and then slow or immobilze enemies.  You can move one next to another ally and then lightning rush them.  Battleminds are easy to build for multiple defender parties, especially once you hit level 7.

Swordmages

Tactics

These are tricky since your punishment is marked based.  You can fire and forget your mark, so if the other defender immbolizes an enemy it is in trouble.  There might even be uses for ensaring swordmages here since that can trigger things like lightning rush in later rounds, but a hybrid assault swordmage/melee striker with a big weapon is perfect for this.  And a shielding one means your ally isn’t getting hurt.

Also white lotus riposte and white lotus master riposte potentially even better than normal since you don't mind not marking the target as much.  Think paladin marking from range with you in between the marked enemy and the paladin.

Powers to Consider

Booming Blade At will stickiness without marking

Lighting Lure Pull an enemy marked by an ally at ranged 3.

Luring Strike
At will Slide an enemy marked by an ally. 

Arcane Lance This is better for you than on a typical swordmage.  Slows with reach 2 and you can charge with it.  If you are going for slowing tricks in your party it is worth looking at, but swordmages have many other good choices for at wills.

Firgid Blade Not quite slowing at will, but it can be a decent slowish debuff.

Dimensional Vortex 3 Ranged 10 interrupt.  Ally is hit by melee attack and you teleport the enemy and it has to attack someone else, including you.

Reaper's Challenge 15 An interupt that weakens the enemy for the encounter if it doesn't attack you.

Surprising Transposition 17 Another teleporting interrupt for when an ally is hit.  You can switch places with an ally and get hit by the attack




Berserkers (barbarians)

Tactics

Berserkers are interesting since they are sort of designed to work as a second defender.  You have a defending aura that you can turn off at will, so you generally work well with allies that want to mark their targets like swordmages and paladins.  You also work well with allies who have powers that redirect attacks to themselves.  A battlemind/berserker pairing with two big superior weapons could be a significant threat with the battlemind lightning rushing the enemy, who is then subject to your vengeful guardian attack.

You probably want to invest more on the striker side since you probably won't be as defendery as a berserker who is acting as sole defender.  You will generally want enemies to stick next to you the first few rounds of a fight and then switch over to striker mode when you want to finish off enemies.  Berserker is also a good choice if you are not sure who your allies are going to be, which can be common in things like LFR.  Primal powers are marked with a P since they make you enter your berserker's fury.

Powers to Consider

Aggresive lunge A push shift at will power

Run Down A slowing at will

Batter Down 1 enc. Proning means sticky without marking.  You might switch this out once you get world serpents grasp

Shout of Terror 1 enc. P This slows in a close blast.

Bloodseekers Rage 1 P Daily Enemies who shift away from you provoke.

Implacable Advance 3 Another sticky without marking power.  Shift next to the target if it moves

Hammer Fall 3 P A proning attack vs fort.

Brutal Slam 3 P A push prone attack

Rippling Blades 3 P If your defender ally is next to the target, not a bad way to activate striker mode

Earth Grasp Rage 5 P Immobilizes and prones and you do extra damage to immobilized or proned enemies.

Thuderhawk rage 5 P A dazing attack that lets you try to prone an enemy 1/round.

Deny Escape 7 An immobilizing power.

Curtain of Steel 7 P A good way to turn off your defender funtion.  Its an interrupt for solid damage when someone attacks you.

Flying Serpent Rage 9 P If your DM likes to charge your defender allies, this is a good way to enter a rage.  Its an interupt that will punish enemies that charge.  You can also take further actions after you charge.

Stoneroot Rage 9 P Slows (save ends) and you get damage resist.

Eye of the Maelstrom 9 If you have a non-marking defender ally like a battlemind this is a good daily choice for you.

Wrath of the Storm 9 A prone/push as an effect.

Black Dragon Rage 9 P Blind is a good debuff for an off defender.

Oak Hammer Rage 9 P Automatic proning when you hit.  I think this is going to create a lot of catch 22s when enemies are unable to get away from you.

White Tiger Rage 9 P Enemies will be automatically slowed when next to you.

Rage of the Battle Tyrant 9 P This lets defender allies shift away from the target so they can range punish it. 

Circle of battle 10 enc. This is really good for when you have an ally with a ranged punishment next to the enemy.  And you potentially immobilize the enemy.

Drive to the ground.  13 A sliding proning power.

Storm Of Blades 13 P Three attacks against one target.  Another good way to switch to striker mode.

Slash at the Knees 15 Close burst immobilize.  I would rather rage most of the time, but this does not trigger at least.

Iron Hammer Rage 15 P When combined with polearm momentum this is a good proning rage.  Your attacks push 2.

Tidal Rage 15 P Lots of good sliding with this one.  That sets up ranged punishment

Distracting Advance 16 enc. Similar to circle of battle.  Lets defender allies move away from marked enemies.

Mountain Grasp 17 P an immobilizing power where the target grants you CA.

Shoulder Slam 17 P A multitarget attack that pushes and can be used on a charge

Threatening Fury 17 P This one is worth taking if you have a way to get the target to stick next to you first.  If you have WSG or another trick this will punish them when they try to escape.

Unavoidable stalker 17 Lets you shift next to the enemy its next turn.

Arcing Throw 23 P This lets you attack an enemy at range and slow them for good damage

Crater Fall 23 P A push prone power with the potential to prone a bunch of enemies if you use it on a charge.

Cutting THe Path 23 P A good power to use when you have enemies bunched up around you.

Staggering Strike 23 P Vs fort with stunned.

Keep it down.  27 Prones and provokes OAs when it stands up

Bone Breaker 27 P An interrupt when an enemy moves away from you.

Butchers Feast 27 P This is like Threatening Fury.  If you have a way to get enemies to stick next you, you will be doing a good bit of damage with this.

Hurricane of Blades 27 P One of the better ways to come out of defender mode.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Themes

Guardian This is an obvious one because of the interrupt encounter power.  You become the target of an attack that targets an ally, but not you.  This can trigger everything from divine challenge to lightning rush because it changes the targetting.  And you get an MBA out of it.  The rest of the theme isn't bad either.

Paragon Paths

Polearm Master For the reach weapon/forced movement strength builds out there. 

Teamwork and Synergies

Things that can potentially help any defenders:

Exploit slow and immobilize.  Viscious advantage and grasp of the world serpent.  All defenders can fairly easily slow and immobilize even at low levels and often with at will powers, except for the cavalier.

Consider Boosting your OAs.  Agile opportunist will help with defenders that have powers that force move allies.  Your defender allies can have powers like Get Over Here, Quick Switch, and Liberation can trigger OAs if you do take that.  Other OA boosting feats like sudden roots are also a possibility.

Battleawareness  Any non-fighter can take this if they qualify.  It is punishment without marking and opens up fighter feats

Polearm Gamble/momentum with one defender is nice.  With two or more and you are potentially playing ping pong and many defender builds will want a polearm anyways.  You can do similar things with dragging flail.  MC Fighter is a good option for non-fighters because of the feats like these it unlocks along with Polearm Master paragon path.

Proning Prone enemies next to you often have a hard time attacking someone else, even if you are not marking them.  The most common ways for defenders to prone are powers that directly prone, world serpent's grasp, flail expertise, and polearm momentum.

Domination tricks.  Normally defenders don't dominate and domination is one of the big ways to help in multi-defender parties.  Battlemind is the only one with any domination powers, but there are other ways to get it.  A few paragon paths have dominatio powers.  The big other way is in epic with Royal Command of Asmodeus, which turns stuns into dominates, but requires you be a tiefling.  Defenders do have acceess stunning attacks.  Champions symbol is a good option for chaladins, though it is only a daily power.

Non-defender Powers: Ally Powers, Power Swaps, And Hybrid Ideas

Making Enemies Attack:
One way for you to punish enemies is with powers that force them to attack someone else.  If you dominate an enemy (stun+royal blessing of asmodeus as mentioned above) you can make them attack an enemy or the other defender and then trigger mark and other punishments.

Ardent: Unconsious Assault.  This level 27 power forces the target to attack someone else as an effect.

Cleric: Fey Beguling.  This level 7 cleric power prevents enemies from attacking you.  If they want to attack someone they need to trigger your punishment.  A hybrid fighter or paladin could get some use out of this.  

Monk Drunken Monkey.  A dex defender build can use this to potentially trigger multiple attacks.  Monks have a couple powers like this.

What can your allies do?

Force Move people in between two of you.  Even better if they can use moves that don’t count as forced movement like domination or powers like cause fear/deadly lure since those can provoke OAs from both of you. 

Force Attacks Domination is not common at low levels, but hypnotism is an at will power. Decree of kirald is a a level 1 warlock daily power that does this and rogue have confounding attack at level 1, while druids can pick up an encounter dominate in Charm Beast at level 7 and divine characters who take the Heartwarder Paragon Path get an encounter dominate at level 11 (though it does break if the target is attacked). Searching for "target makes attack your choice" in the compendium brings up dozens of powers that do this. Enchanter wizards have tons of powers that do this. Note that this will not work for all defenders- a Paladin's Divine Challenge only damages the target if it attacks one of your allies, but Divine Sanction does damage when it makes an attack that doesn't include you.

Be Willing to Provoke OAs  It is worth it when you know 2 or 3 defenders are going to punish the enemy if the DM goes for it.  Having allies like worldspeaker shaman boosting your defenses against OAs or an artful dodger rogue who is hard to hit with OA's doesn't hurt, though your DM may give up.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Links to Builds and Ideas

Raging Teleporter(x)  My assault swordmage/barbarian hybrid.  Hits real hard with his mark punishment, but not much else in defending.

Set hammers to stun(x)  This is a fighter/paladin build that is based around multiple uses of stuns and eventually dominates.  Not very mark dependent in its punishment, especially at higher levels and can force enemies to disobey marks pratically at will in epic.

Pocket Protector(x) A pixie stealth knight that hides in allies squares.

Defending Can be a Two Person Job (x) A similar older handbook.

Sample Baladin as a Second Defender

Here is a Dragonborn baladin mc warlock/questing knight/destined scion build that has mark punishment it can easily sustain at range along with lots of marking.  Good for a warden ally or other sticky ally without mark punishment.  Works ok with a lightning rushing battlemind as well since enemies will want to attack you.  Decent off leader as well. 

2nd baladin
[sblock]
Dragonborn Paladin of a trickery Domain
Lay on Hands
Starting Stats 18 12 10 8 12 18
Final Stats 28 14 12 10 14 28 
Questing Knight (champion of order also works)
Destined Scion
Theme Ordained priest (for extra close attack)
Background

Powers
at will enfeebling strike
at will strike of hope

1 Valorous Smite
1 Radiant Delerium
2 Virtue
3 Fortune Spurned Smite
5 Name of Might
6 Shield of Discipline
7 Price of Cowardice
9 Ray of Reprisal
10 Vengeful Vigilance or guiding verse

13 Castigating Strike
15 True Nemesis
16 Liberation
17 Wrathful smite or mark of terror
19 Corona of Blinding Radiance or Name of Potency
 
22 Shared Valor
23 Demand Respect
25 Disciple The unruly
27 Stunning Smite
29 Name of Awe

Feats
Mighty Challenge (adds strength mod to challenge)
Versatile Expertise
Mc Starlock (for extra ranged attack)
Power of Trickery
Improved Defenses
Starfire Womb

Hero's Poise (with starfire womb you are a saving throw bonus machine)
Forceful Challenge (slides)
Bitter Challenge (slows)
Persistent Challenge (sustain without attacks)
Contagious Challenge (divine sanctions neighboring enemies when hit)
Mark of Warding

Weakening Challenge (weakens)
Divine Mastery
Paladin's Truth
Punishing Radiance
WorldSerpents grasp
Superior Initative

At level 30 divine challenge does 27 radiant damage with a -3 to hit from the mark.  It also weakens, slows, slides 1, and grants you a save which if you make gives your allies a +9 bonus to saves for a round.  If you hit the challenged enemy you sanction an adjacent enemy. 

Optional Feats:
Draconic Challange/Hurl Breath (in place of starlock and starfire womb)
Superior Will
Unitiring Virtue
Glorious Channeler
Solar Enemy with sun domain

This also works with a gnome and distracting challenge in place of radiant recovery, but I might make that a con/cha build.  A Deva would add in radiant recovery with a con/cha build.  Halfelf would go with a ranged or close radiant attack for its dilletante. 
[/sblock]

Miscellaneous Commentary P1

[sblock]
Originally posted by IxidorRS:

Considering I'm planning on playing a Berserker Barbarian soon, I am interested in this here guide. I actually just ran a game with three defenders. It was ... hard.

I think some mention of themes might be good. Gaurdian's Counter is insanely good in multiple defender parties, due to a bit of timing tricks you can manage with it.

Originally posted by Mommy_was_an_Orc:

Any attack which allows a PC to force a target to swing at someone other than the intended target(aka PC that marked him) ought to be Gold. Lightning Rush, Dimensional Vortex...

MCing Wizard and picking up Mass Charm when in a party with auto-damage marks works really well, too.

Originally posted by mellored:

Might need a spot for multiple interups triggering off the same action, and chaining interupts. It's pretty diffiuclt to figure out RAW wise (if there is a real answer).

Dimentional Vortex, Surprising Transportation (swordmage) are a winners.


Originally posted by Plaguescarred1:

In Tactics and Powers to consider can i suggest White Lotus Riposte and White Lotus Master Riposte for the Swordmage (since its the only Defender barring Half-Elf poaching to hace access to Arcane At-will), these two Feats work great in helping punishing unmarked foe in catch-22.

In Themes and other Support, The Guardian is highly recommanded id say as it procure another punishment against unmarked foe.

Originally posted by FLAvatar:

We started days after the PHB hit with a dwarf and dragonborn fighter. Dwarf did hammer and board as sort of the "main tank," and the dragonborn used a glaive and was the "off-tank."

We got a lot of mileage on solos out of letting the dwarf mark and take most of the abuse, and the dragon went with powers like Hounding Longarm and Strike of the Watchful Guard. They mimic mark punishment to a large extent, but the 2 fighters never ended up having to worry about overwriting marks and could tag team the heck out of a solo that decided to try to disrespect the lockdown or daze/stun the marker.

Originally posted by Mand12:

Dual Swordmage is fun. Since you can enforce at range, it's easy enough to have each swordmage mark a target, then switch targets. Makes those dual-Elite encounters rather trivial.

As a bonus, you also get the lovely, lovely Dimension Swap.

Originally posted by RenZhe:

For Swordmages:

Booming Blade fits the defending without marking bill pretty spot-on, and is a pretty standard way for Swordmages to lock down 2 targets in heroic. Combo with another class that can mark or punish at range.

Also, Frigid Blade works like a Slow or Immobilize in higher tiers, and Luring Strike does exactly the same thing as Footwork Lure on a fighter.

Originally posted by mellored:

Oh, and i heartily approve of this guide

(admittedly, not so much with the name, would of gone with "defender interupted" or "defending the defender", or "over protecetion" or something, but meh).

Originally posted by Mommy_was_an_Orc:

In Tactics and Powers to consider can i suggest White Lotus Riposte and White Lotus Master Riposte for the Swordmage (since its the only Defender barring Half-Elf poaching to hace access to Arcane At-will), these two Feats work great in helping punishing unmarked foe in catch-22.

In Themes and other Support, The Guardian is highly recommanded id say as it procure another punishment against unmarked foe.

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Paladins can have an arcane at-will via Power of Arcana and Virtuous Strike.

Originally posted by Gunthar:

The Freedom Fighter Paragon Path (Warlord multi or Escaped Slave Theme) is also really sweet for that Level 11 power and Action Point benefit. It's a 3[W] from 6 squares away version of the Guardian Power and the Action Point benefit of one ally (or all marked or grabbed allies) getting free basic attacks is really nice for adding up the number of attacks to help with raw damage.

Freedom Fighter Attack 11 Self-Sacrificing Strike

You dive to your friend’s rescue and then rise up in revenge.

Encounter Martial, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee or Ranged weapon

Trigger: An ally within 6 squares of you is the target of a ranged or melee attack.

Effect: You shift up to 5 squares to end adjacent to the triggering ally, slide the ally 1 square, and shift into the square the ally left. You make the following attack.

Target: The creature that made the triggering attack

Attack: Primary ability vs. AC

Hit: 3[W] + ability modifier damage, and you gain a +2 power bonus to all defenses against the triggering attack.

Aftereffect: You become the target of the triggering attack.

In theory, multiple characters with this PP could off-turn semi-spike a solo as the after-affect makes the PC a target or one character could have it to set up a chain with the Guardian power.


Originally posted by WEContact:

Oh, and i heartily approve of this guide

(admittedly, not so much with the name, would of gone with "defender interupted" or "defending the defender", or "over protecetion" or something, but meh).

Click to expand...

But... the name is the best part. It's perfect.

Originally posted by EnglishLanguage:

Oh, and i heartily approve of this guide

(admittedly, not so much with the name, would of gone with "defender interupted" or "defending the defender", or "over protecetion" or something, but meh).

Click to expand...

'Who Defends the Defender?"

Originally posted by sythspawn:

I just got done playing in an LFR adventure where the party consisted of two warlords, two fighters, a swordmage, and a warden. Weird, but fun.

Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:

Oh, and i heartily approve of this guide
(admittedly, not so much with the name, would of gone with "defender interupted" or "defending the defender", or "over protecetion" or something, but meh).

Click to expand...

But... the name is the best part. It's perfect.

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Seconded! I even have the perfect top graphic:



Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Anyone know which other battlemind powers would be good to add?

Also I know little about knights and cavaliers. I have only seen one knight in play in a one shot and no cavaliers. Suggestions for tricks with them are welcome.

Paragon paths and themes now have their own section so more suggestions are welcome.

I also added a section for links to builds. I am going to add my assault swordmage/barbarian as a build that works well for this since it is a hybrid defender that works well with other defenders. And I am going to add Set Hammers to Stun since that works well since it is not marked based in its punishment. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Originally posted by AtG:

I have a Swordmage|Warlord in a party with a Battlemind. I don't actually get my aegis interrupt that often - Dimensional Vortex and Countering Thunderclap usually take priority. When I do mark something, the Battlemind will use Conductive Defense. On top of that, I can either stack WLR + some THP (from Booming Blade + Rose King's Shield) or just run away and use Direct the Strike.

Also, if you aren't using your aegis interrupt as often powers like Transposing Lunge are somewhat more valuable, because an enemy really doesn't want to be the first one to violate your mark.


Originally posted by Scatterbrained:

Looking at the Berseker, I don't see any reactive powers, but they have plenty that prone or immobilize to stick to marked foes. I think they would mostly rely on that tactic in addition to things that aren't class-specific. Luckily marks take precedence over the aura.

Originally posted by VorpalBunny:

Doesn't the Berserker gain access to all the Barbarian powers, therefore Curtain of Steel and Fearsome Smash? Those could be usefull if you're using the Berserker as a tank in a two-tank party...

Originally posted by TheMalteseFalchion:

A multi-defender party (depending on the wording of their main marking mechanic) can really benefit from a Wizard/Mage with Hypnotism, which will force creatures to attack things other than the defender who marked them, starting at level 1.

Great for making a creature violate a Warden's mark. Not so great against the Paladin's mark.

Originally posted by Scatterbrained:

Doesn't the Berserker gain access to all the Barbarian powers, therefore Curtain of Steel and Fearsome Smash? Those could be usefull if you're using the Berserker as a tank in a two-tank party...

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I suppose, but remember when you use a primal attack you're no longer a defender, so it would foil any further defender-defender stuff for the rest of the encounter.

Originally posted by VorpalBunny:

Is the language on "Berserker's Fury" (orwhatever that class feature is) "Can" or "Must" enter a fury when you use a primal encounter attack power?...

Originally posted by psk20:

I started a guide on this(x) a couple of years ago. I never finished the power list because the list gets huge if you try and discuss all the possible options for all classes. But the treatment of the theory is pretty solid - I even coined the term "off-tanks trilemma." Fancy.

Feel free to borrow some of the stuff from that guide if you like (just give me a nod )

Originally posted by psk20:

Also, a permahidden OA specialist combines really nicely with a Swordmage - particularly an Assault swordmage (with this combo a shielding swordmage is likely to be somewhat redundant).

Have the swordmage mark a target and kite, while the stealther gets ready to mop up some sweet, sweet OAs.

Originally posted by psk20:

I think the barbarian will definitely need special treatment. It's somewhat unique in that it operates as a fairly stock-standard defender until you flip the switch and is then a striker. A great fifth wheel, IMO.

That reminds me, it's definitely worth considering how any two defender party will deal with solos. Obviously they can't both mark. The barbarian gets around this by just going striker mode during solo encounters. Other off-tanks need to find a form of mark-less punishment and layer it on top of the main-tank's mark.

Originally posted by alien270:

I think the barbarian will definitely need special treatment. It's somewhat unique in that it operates as a fairly stock-standard defender until you flip the switch and is then a striker. A great fifth wheel, IMO.

That reminds me, it's definitely worth considering how any two defender party will deal with solos. Obviously they can't both mark. The barbarian gets around this by just going striker mode during solo encounters. Other off-tanks need to find a form of mark-less punishment and layer it on top of the main-tank's mark.

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In a party with multiple defenders I would honestly just stay in Fury most of the time anyways. I can see Aggressive Lunge and Run Down both being useful if you're working with another defender, and an O-Barbarian won't get as much mileage out of these powers. Berserkers can also front-load a bunch of THP early on by taking the Berserk Vitality feat. I'm not saying it's necessarily a better striker than an O-Barbarian for this type of party, but it does bring its own tricks to the table and I don't think it'd be weaker even if you largely ignored the defender aura.

Originally posted by psk20:

Hmm, I wonder how an ebarian would work out in tandem with another defender-lite striker build.

Originally posted by sanityfaerie:

For Battleminds: I believe that they have a power - twisted eye or something? - that forces the enemy to attack one of their own friends, and can be used to trigger mark punishments. There are builds structured around exploiting that by yourself, but I imagine it would be that much easier to exploit it with a friend.

reach weapons are excellent with multi-defender parties, especially for fighters/paladins and with powers that let you prevent or punish shifting. Line up in a row, with the nonmarking defender between the marking (polearm-wielding) defender and the enemy. Either the enemy attacks the guy in front of him, and suffers mark punishment, moves, and takes an opportunity attack (or two), or shifts, and takes whatever punishment you have for shifting.

- Two-fisted brawler pin-down also becomes an interesting option. A properly built pin-down brawler can pretty effectively lock down and (at least to a degree) trivialize any enemy who winds up adjacent and prone, up until he runs out of hands. Problem is that it takes a whiel to set up if he has to do it himself, and after he has one locked down, his ability to chase down additional targets diminishes fairly rapidly. Build another defender with a specialty for forced movement and proning, however, particularly one that can either mark and walk away(battlemind/swordmage), mark and maintain at a safe distance (polearm paladin/fighter) or move in and out to maintain the mark (kobold warden - Hey, stop laughing. It *could* happen) and you can leave the chosen enemy with some really poor options.

Originally posted by Dedekine:

Battlemind powers worth note (probably not comprehensive):

Conductive Defence is the second most obvious power, as it is no-mark-required mark punishment.

Lodestone Lure combines well with a ranged enforcement defender like a shielding swordmage to deny the monster the option of "go engage the guy who's marking me."

Lightning Rush, most obviously.

Might of the Ogre is another that combines well with another ranged defender to pile on damage while limiting options by eating up the move action.

Mind of Mirrors is the at-will dominate (as an Augment 6, though). However, the unaugmented version is also very applicable. The target takes -5 to hit anyone other than you, so good synergy with someone like a fighter with vicious mark punishment.

Originally posted by Gunthar:

Also, teleport items and powers of especially more than one square are golden.

Originally posted by Awesomologist:

I think the barbarian will definitely need special treatment. It's somewhat unique in that it operates as a fairly stock-standard defender until you flip the switch and is then a striker. A great fifth wheel, IMO.

That reminds me, it's definitely worth considering how any two defender party will deal with solos. Obviously they can't both mark. The barbarian gets around this by just going striker mode during solo encounters. Other off-tanks need to find a form of mark-less punishment and layer it on top of the main-tank's mark.

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The e-barian is just a hybrid striker|defender bundled in one. E-barian should just follow the same tricks as other Hybrid Striker|Defenders; mark when you need to lock down a few oponents or give your defender a break, otherwise just rely on your striker attacks and features. It's not hard at all, I've been doing it with SM|Locks, Paladin|Locks, and Blackguard|Lock (oddly better than the pure pally version). I imagine it works for Fighter combos as well as you can just switch between marking with your fighter powers.

Best part about hybrids is that there's no "switching" needed. You just use a power or you don't. Still waiting to see if the e-barian is any better than the Barbarian who MC's Fighter and if there's any loss or gain in damage output.

Originally posted by mellored:

Oh, and i heartily approve of this guide

(admittedly, not so much with the name, would of gone with "defender interupted" or "defending the defender", or "over protecetion" or something, but meh).

Click to expand...

But... the name is the best part. It's perfect.

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I must be missing the reference...

Either way, i judge guids not by the color of their name, but the color of their content. And so far, so good.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Mellored, the name came from this comment(x) in the original thread. Don't think bobbing heads, think a bunch of guys swarming a girl on a dance floor who can't get away.

Paladin divine challenges an enemy, attacks, then shifts away. Next round enemy moves next to paladin to attack it. That triggers guardians pounce from the warden, then lightning rush from the battlemind, and then price of cowardice from the paladin.

Originally posted by mellored:

Mellored, the name came from this comment(x) in the original thread. Don't think bobbing heads, think a bunch of guys swarming a girl on a dance floor who can't get away.

Paladin divine challenges an enemy, attacks, then shifts away. Next round enemy moves next to paladin to attack it. That triggers guardians pounce from the warden, then lightning rush from the battlemind, and then price of cowardice from the paladin.

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Fair enough.

Still like EnglishLaunges's "who defends the defender" better though.

Edit: You should use that pic.

Originally posted by Gervase_Trapspringer:

Quis defensor defendere?

Originally posted by Awesomologist:



Pity I can't find a larger one. But this may do:


Originally posted by psk20:

I think the barbarian will definitely need special treatment. It's somewhat unique in that it operates as a fairly stock-standard defender until you flip the switch and is then a striker. A great fifth wheel, IMO.

That reminds me, it's definitely worth considering how any two defender party will deal with solos. Obviously they can't both mark. The barbarian gets around this by just going striker mode during solo encounters. Other off-tanks need to find a form of mark-less punishment and layer it on top of the main-tank's mark.

Click to expand...

The e-barian is just a hybrid striker|defender bundled in one. E-barian should just follow the same tricks as other Hybrid Striker|Defenders; mark when you need to lock down a few oponents or give your defender a break, otherwise just rely on your striker attacks and features. It's not hard at all, I've been doing it with SM|Locks, Paladin|Locks, and Blackguard|Lock (oddly better than the pure pally version). I imagine it works for Fighter combos as well as you can just switch between marking with your fighter powers.

Best part about hybrids is that there's no "switching" needed. You just use a power or you don't. Still waiting to see if the e-barian is any better than the Barbarian who MC's Fighter and if there's any loss or gain in damage output.

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As a hybrid striker|defender, you really should be trying to do both at the same time, IMO.[/sblock]

Miscellaneous Commentary P2

[sblock]
Originally posted by Awesomologist:

As a hybrid striker|defender, you really should be trying to do both at the same time, IMO.

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Not all defenders or Hybrids have that luxury, but yes you are right. Another title for this thread could also be called "Off-Tanking 101".

Also, for your approval Gel-O:


Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:

Enh. Needs more Brent Spiner.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Updated OP with edited picture. I was going to put that picture up, but hadn't had a chance yet.

I updated the knight, cavalier, and battlemind sections. Battlemind seems like one of the better options for a multidefender party.

Let me know if I am off base with my comments on knights or cavaliers. Cavaliers seem like the worst defender choice for a multidefender party and I think charop considers them the weakest defender in general to begin with. Knights can at least at will push or slow.

Originally posted by Mommy_was_an_Orc:

As a hybrid striker|defender, you really should be trying to do both at the same time, IMO.

Click to expand...

Not all defenders or Hybrids have that luxury, but yes you are right. Another title for this thread could also be called "Off-Tanking 101".

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Defenders, maybe not. But every optimal hybrid Striker|Defender build ought to have a way of both confirming a mark and doing a striker-like power for at least 3 rounds out of every encounter. If they can't do that, then they're usually someone who has the choice between being a subpar defender or subpar striker.

As an example, a Rogue|Fighter who is a hybrid loses a +1 to hit, +Str to damage on sneak attack(or something else, but DPR is the easiest to measure), and then loses Defender AC from the other side. If he doesn't get the Defender AC, then he's going to be a sucky Defender. If he doesn't get the +1 to hit/Str, comparatively, he's going to be a subpar Striker. To top it off, he's likely losing a +1 to hit/damage from having only an 18 Dex instead of a 20.

Take that Rogue|Fighter, make him get Tempest with his hybrid talent, pick up Kirre's Roar and Rain of Blows, and MC into Warden, and now the character can mark for 3 rounds straight with powers that are either Striker powers from Rogue or very good copies from Fighter. He has a nearly typical Tempest AC. He gets the +1 to hit back and gets part of the +Str back.

Originally posted by warrl:

A multi-defender party (depending on the wording of their main marking mechanic) can really benefit from a Wizard/Mage with Hypnotism, which will force creatures to attack things other than the defender who marked them, starting at level 1.

Great for making a creature violate a Warden's mark. Not so great against the Paladin's mark.

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And it could actually make the Assault Swordmage good, and the Ensnaring Swordmage useful.


Originally posted by psk20:

You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets. Were you referring to using it alongside mark-less tanking? Probably worth noting that it will only work in such cases, and not against targets affected by your Aegis.

Although my old guide is a bit out of date, there's heaps of stuff you could take out of there. Here's a few fighter powers worth a mention:

Hounding Longarm, Pinning Smash, Vigilant protector, Phalanx Leader, Stalwart Guard, Defender's Gambit, Interposing Shield, Tap and Counterstrike, Strike of the Watchful Guard, Turnabout Riposte - and the Phalanx Warrior feat. They vary in power but they're all relevant to offtanking.

I've got a bunch of things in there for other classes too. One paladin power of note: Discipline the Unruly. It's a daily but it's crazy good for off-tanks. Hillariously if you dump strength and deliver it with a headbutt, you're likely to miss, will still get the encounter-long effect, and can reclaim it for a second use with the Ring of Radiant Storms (only after a milestone).

Reaper's Challenge is also a pretty swanky go-to for offtank swordmages.

Originally posted by warrl:

You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets.

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Yes it does work on marked targets, according to the online Compendium.

Marked by somebody else, that is.

Which can be helpful in a party with multiple marking defenders. Particularly if there's someone in the party with a way to make the monster attack you - you're a defender and can take it, you get to hit back, and the defender with the mark gets to hit him too.


Originally posted by Mand12:

He mentions WLR, not WLMR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.

Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.

Originally posted by psk20:

You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets.

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Yes it does work on marked targets, according to the online Compendium.

Marked by somebody else, that is.

Which can be helpful in a party with multiple marking defenders. Particularly if there's someone in the party with a way to make the monster attack you - you're a defender and can take it, you get to hit back, and the defender with the mark gets to hit him too.

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Oooh, yes, good point, though that's what I meant. I'm fully cognizant of the possibilities as an off-tank that uses mark-less punishment. But it's definitely worth noting that it ONLY works if you don't mark the target now. Check my old guide(x). It's about the exact same thing as this one, has a detailed theoretical analysis, and lists a bazillion powers (though the power list doesn't even include all the options even up to two years ago, there's still a lot of good stuff in there).

He mentions WLR, not WLMR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.

Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.

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Yeah, for sure, WLR IS good.


Originally posted by EnglishLanguage:

Mellored, the name came from this comment(x) in the original thread. Don't think bobbing heads, think a bunch of guys swarming a girl on a dance floor who can't get away.

Paladin divine challenges an enemy, attacks, then shifts away. Next round enemy moves next to paladin to attack it. That triggers guardians pounce from the warden, then lightning rush from the battlemind, and then price of cowardice from the paladin.

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Fair enough.

Still like EnglishLaunges's "who defends the defender" better though.

Edit: You should use that pic.

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Originally posted by lektor:

The level 15 swordmage daily reaper's challenge should probably also be mentioned. Slap it on a monster that someone else has marked and move away making it perma weakened.

Originally posted by mellored:

Glowering Threat (fighter)
Undeniable Challenge* (fighter)
Wildblood warden's second wind*

*requires a mark, but if you go right before an ally, you can apply the penalty and then he can over mark.

Originally posted by Tichrimo:

The big tactical difference for Knights is that their aura is passive (i.e. it applies with no action on their part) and the punishment is an OA (so they can enforce a lot more violations than other defenders).

Very handy for controllers to stick badguys onto or to set up catch-22's with other defenders.

Originally posted by Awesomologist:

He mentions WLR, not WLMR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.

Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.

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WLMR works if you have 2 Swordmages (or hybrids) or a Swordmage and a Paladin. Paladin or Swordmage A marks with his challenge/aegis and sticks within 5/10, while Swordmage B uses Booming Blade or Fridged Blade to keep the enemy adjacent to him. The enemy should have a hard time moving away to get to the Paladin or Swordmage A (Frigid Blade), possibly taking extra damage (Booming Blade), draw an OA if it uses a ranged attack, or attack Swordmage B drawing WLR, Divine Challenge or Aegis mark, and WLMR.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I rephrased the WLMR section a little bit yesterday to be more clear. The point of it is that another ally marks from a distance (fighter with reach weapon, paladin with divine challenge, etc) and you attack it, and the enemy is stuck next to you for some reason. Its slowed/proned, immobilized, dazed, etc. Then they have the option of not attacking that round or attacking you with ally's mark punishment and you repeating the at will.

Originally posted by mellored:

I would call undeniable challenge skyblue.

You litterally force enemies to disobey (or not attack). Only thing stopping it from being gold is the mark requirement.

Also, persistant tail could be a very nice thing. Depending on how reaction/interups interact, having it on a knight who uses it on say... a battlemind who lightning rushed.

Originally posted by jaedenkaal:

I can confirm from personal experience that combining grabs of any kind (from a brawler, say) with Just Radiance (Justiciar E11) is flat out hilarious. Our DM hates that prayer with a passion

Originally posted by IxidorRS:

I'm going crazy trying to remember what power was used or if it was maybe a Fortune card ...

A group with two knights and a paladin. The paladin used something on a solo that said, "the next time the target takes damage, it must move it's full speed away from you."

Anybody have a clue what that was?

Anyway, it hurt the solo quite badly, and then the DM made a poor tactical decision (re: me) and didn't move away as a regular move action since it was damaged on a readied action and all the opponenets had just used their oppurtunity action to attack the solo.

Originally posted by psk20:

Fortune-spurned smite.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I like that one and am going to add it. I really wish there was a common word (something like flee) for these move away from you powers so they would be easier to search for.

I don't have that power on my staladin in my current two defender party because the other defender is a brawler fighter so he almost always has his target grabbed.

Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:

This is a really great guide, GO! I'm recommending my party's Paladin take Price of Cowardice, because I can't wait to use that in conjunction with Provoke Overextension...

Originally posted by ryuwizard98:

it seems like you're missing the upgraded version of Come and Get It (Warrior's Urging), and the equivalent powers from the Warden (Warden's Lure) and Paladin (Champion's Call) from the first page.

It's super fun to do Stormheart Warden/Figher - Gladiator Champion - Eternal Seeker and take all of them (minus the paladin one because it's keyed off the wrong stat ) Add in Windy Assault and all you encounter powers, except the Gladiator one, pull everything within several squares closer to you

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I rearranged the OP a little and added this tip:

If your defender ally has long range punishment, through their mark mechanic or otherwise, consider forced movement. Most defenders can push/follow, slide, or pull fairly often. If you have an ally that can punish at range like an assault swordmage, chaladin, lightning rushing battlemind, etc., then forcing the enemy next to you and away from them can help to trigger the punishemnt.

I will the powers ryuwizard98 mentioned when I get the chance in the next few days.

Anyone have any good themes or paragon paths?

Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:

Minor point: you list the Swordmage At-Will "Booming Blade" as a multi-target power, when it is single target. "Swordburst" is the Swordmage multi-target At-Will.

Originally posted by ryuwizard98:

I rearranged the OP a little and added this tip:

If your defender ally has long range punishment, through their mark mechanic or otherwise, consider forced movement. Most defenders can push/follow, slide, or pull fairly often. If you have an ally that can punish at range like an assault swordmage, chaladin, lightning rushing battlemind, etc., then forcing the enemy next to you and away from them can help to trigger the punishemnt.

I will the powers ryuwizard98 mentioned when I get the chance in the next few days.

Anyone have any good themes or paragon paths?

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Guardian is a super cool theme, and so is Sigil Carver in terms of paragon paths, off the top of my head. Multiclassing Fighter (Battle Awareness) also gives mark-style punishment sans a mark.

Originally posted by IxidorRS:

In any party with a Defender, the Fey Beast Tamer and Sentinel companions can be used to provoke OAs from those enemies that are marked or in a defender's aura. Since it's easy to bring back the companion (as long as you have plenty of surges) this could turn into a very decent strategy. It's a shame you can't take oppurtunity actions on your own turn to punish your beasts movements, but it's a decent choice.

Originally posted by Zathris:

If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.

Originally posted by furious_kender:

If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.

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Not all DMs meta game. DMs frequently roleplay the enemies, and base tactical decisions on that.

Originally posted by thanerhogar:

When I used to play a Swordmage|Artificer as an offtank/secondary leader in a party with a fighter and battle cleric as its front line, I had lots of fun trading off targets with the fighter. I'd mark the biggest thing in front of him, and then he'd do everything he could without marking it to keep it on him, and try to mark up other things. Then I'd either settle into the backline and throw my drow longknife to buff the strikers with artificer powers, or run off to a secondary group of enemies and do my best non-mark defending. Sword of Sigils is great for shielding swordmages for that.

Battleminds definitely strike me as good multi-defenders. After all, their built in mark punishment is pretty lame, so they spend most of their time working around it anyway. My guess is if you're a Battlemind who doesn't have to play sole defender, it's worth speccing into Brutal Barrage so you can put out good personal damage when there aren't tricks to be done.

Originally posted by TheMalteseFalchion:

Champion of Order PP for Paladins. The 11 Encounter is absolutely brutal, as long as no one re-marks over you, it's basically a 1 target lockdown for the encounter. Wrecks solos and ruins the day for elites. Every encounter.

Edit: And it's Strength + 4. Nice for the accuracy.

Originally posted by sythspawn:

Champion of Order PP for Paladins. The 11 Encounter is absolutely brutal, as long as no one re-marks over you, it's basically a 1 target lockdown for the encounter. Wrecks solos and ruins the day for elites. Every encounter.

Edit: And it's Strength + 4. Nice for the accuracy.

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I love that power on my paladin.

Originally posted by Joshua_Randall:

Great thread. Multi-defender parties is something I come across with surprising frequency in LFR.

Here's a paladin power for you to add to the list:

True Nemesis, D15
Lasts the entire encounter and punishes the enemy regardless of who it attacks (you or an ally). Obviously, most useful against solos or tough elites who will last long enough to make it worthwhile.

I also think the guide might benefit from a section that mentions powers that force enemies to attack without necessarily dominating them. You mention Hypnotize; there are a ton more, like Decree of Khirad (warlock D1), Allies to Enemies (battlemind D1), Counfounding Attack (rogue D1).

Searching for the phrase "target makes attack your choice" in the Compendium is a good start.

You know, it would be nice if there was a shorthand for this sort of forced attack, similar to how you proposed "flee" as a shorthand for "moves its speed away from you". More keywords, WotC, more keywords!

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I added your suggestions about "target makes attack your choice"

I am mostly through with the powers for a while, but the warden section still needs work.

I also added a baladin mark punishment build in the last post.

Anyone play the berserker in a multi defender party yet? My book is in the mail to me and I have skimmed through the compendium entry a little.

Originally posted by IxidorRS:

I added your suggestions about "target makes attack your choice"

I am mostly through with the powers for a while, but the warden section still needs work.

I also added a baladin mark punishment build in the last post.

Anyone play the berserker in a multi defender party yet? My book is in the mail to me and I have skimmed through the compendium entry a little.

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In a two-defender party, I'd say it's hard not to tell the Berserker to get furious right off and start charging, but if there are a lot of enemies it could be helpful to split the defenders across them. I've not played it yet, but I know it will come up in some upcoming LFR games.

Originally posted by psk20:

If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.

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As Furious Kender said, some DMs roleplay. Elaborating on that, even a smart monster doesn't have perfect information. If the game mechanic in question operates without inflicting the conditional punishment as some kind of effect (e.g. divine challenge does but combat superiority doesn't) on the target, then the monster is unaware of it. I'm too lazy to look up the OA mechanic in question But if it's one of those, it would be somewhat unreasonable for a DM to avoid provoking at all - enemies aren't omniscient. Once the enemies have learnt about the trick, then it's much more reasonable. And if you're up against trained minions of your arch-nemesis (who has faced you before) or super intelligent foes that use scrying liberally, then maybe it would be reasonable for them to be aware of your tactics too. Otherwise, not so much.

Originally posted by IxidorRS:

I mostly play LFR, and when I run games, I try as hard as I can to stick to the tactics laid out.

Sometimes in the tactics, it specifies that some of the creatures will protect one or several other creatures. If it says this, I am always going to take the oppurtunity attack if a ranged character targets one of them.

Being a DM is not about taking every best tactical choice, it's about making the game fun for your players. If you're players enjoy insanely hard tactically superior team monsters, then by all means do so, but making bad choices as a DM does not make them an idiot, it means they are trying to keep the environment alive in combat as much as in roleplay.

Originally posted by mellored:

I suggest adding persistant tail.

Lot's of fun stuff can be done with a out of turn move action (knight persistant tail -> battlemind. Enemy attacks wizard, Battlemind starts lightning rush, knight moves, knight get's an attack, Battlemind finishes lightning rush).

Also great for hiding, which can generate even more stuff (like OA's).

Though i wouldn't rate it very high though, since it's takes your move and immidiate and can be quite difficult to use.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

Bererker section is up. I haven't done any dailies for it yet, but I suspect I will focus on ones that do things like push, slow, or encourage enemies to attack you.

Originally posted by IxidorRS:

Bererker section is up. I haven't done any dailies for it yet, but I suspect I will focus on ones that do things like push, slow, or encourage enemies to attack you.

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One of the primal dailies lets you take an OA when a bloodied adjacent enemy shifts.

Originally posted by mellored:

Polearm master is good for lot's of defenders, not just weaponmasters.

And doubly nice with a lighting glaive + mark of storms.[/sblock]

Miscellaneous Commentary P3

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Originally posted by mellored:

Unconscious Assault: It's an ardent power, but it's also a free attack for ally defender.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I updated post 4 to include that and some similar information.

Originally posted by mellored:

I updated post 4 to include that and some similar information.

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Blah... so you did.

Missed that.

Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:

I did it in reponse to your post! It wasn't like that this morning.

Originally posted by mellored:

I did it in reponse to your post! It wasn't like that this morning.

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Guess that's why i missed it.



Originally posted by EnglishLanguage:

Had my first game with 2 defenders. DM was so mad.

I was a Harrier Battlemind with Conductive Defense, Lodestone Lure, and Lightning Rush. Another member was an Assault Swordmage. The boss didn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by Be3Al2:

Let me know if I am off base with my comments on knights or cavaliers. Cavaliers seem like the worst defender choice for a multidefender party and I think charop considers them the weakest defender in general to begin with. Knights can at least at will push or slow.

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I think that a 2 E-defender team would get around the part that only one mark works. If you have an enemy in the aura of two defenders the enemy will get to chose one of the defenders to attack, else it will take punishment from at least one of them. Not sure how stacking works (the attack penalty does not stack I know) but if you have a knight and a cavalier together the monster might take punishment from both of them if it goes for the wizard.

So for a 2-defender team I think that a combination of E-defenders will work very well.

Originally posted by thespaceinvader:

They explicitly don't work together at all. The aura specifies this, just like it specifies that it doesn't work on marked enemies..

E: also, it seems to me that you've really missed a trick with the Brawler. One of the best ways of forcing punishment, particularly on ranged punishers, would seem to be pinning the enemy down inescapably in the wrong place... The Brawler can effectively control positioning without ever marking.[/sblock]