Overlords

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

As far as 3.5 is concerned, you're mostly right. However, they weren't actually demigods. They did not actually have a divine rank, but had abilities (some of which you mention) that simulated the effects of having a divine rank of about 5 to 9 (The power of a Lesser God).

So for all intents and purposes, they were as powerful as gods (but weren't actually divine).
 

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RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by lord_gore:

I've updated the table with the domains (where available). Enjoy!

I've also noticed that Sul Khatesh's influence overlaps with Bel Shalor... So I made a quick research and tried to fill in the missing domains (3.5 only), trying to take into account the various descriptions and information about each known Overlord (official domains are in black while my suggestions are in blue).
  • Bel Shalor the Shadow in the Flame OracleSC, ShadowECS
  • Dral Khatuur the Heart of Winter Death, ColdFb, WinterFb unpublished
  • Eldrantulku the Oathbreaker CorruptionBoVD, Trickery
  • Katashka the Gatekeeper DeathboundSC, UndeathECS
  • Rak Tulkhesh the Rage of War Destruction, War
  • Ran Iishiv the Unmaker HatredSC, RetributionSC
  • Sakinnirot the Scar that Abides FateSC, TyrantCWar
  • Shudra the Fleshrender n/a
  • Sul Khatesh the Keeper of Secrets Knowledge, Magic
  • Tul Oreshka the Truth in the Darkness DarknessSC, TruthRoE (MadnessCDiv, ShadowECS)
  • Unnamed n/a
  • Unnamed n/a
  • Unnamed n/a possibly a rajah
  • Yad-Raghesh DecayECS, PestilenceSC "dead"
I've replaced the Madness and Shadow domains with Darkness and Truth: I felt that the Madness domain was more fitting to the followers of the Daelkyr, and the Shadow was Bel Shalor's area of influence, but Darkness is a close fit. What do you think about it? I'd love to hear some feedback.

[off topic]

The other night, my players asked me about the Lords of Dust and the fiends in general. I made them roll Knowledge checks and they succeeded brilliantly. I then proceeded to explain them  about the Khyber's bloodspawn, the Age of Fiends, the various fiends themselves and their loose organization (Lords of Dust, Bleak Congress, the Rajahs[Na-Vakhti]-Prakhutus-Fangs of Khyber chain of command, and so on...), the myths (the Shadow in the Flame) and all the the bits I could conceive/remember (various locations)... I left out only the Rajahs' true names and their areas of influence, as well as the Remnants of Creation (PGtE p. 31).

Then I went completely off-board by stating that, while all the fiends were spawned by Khyber's spilled blood, the Rajahs were different from the standard rakshasas: besides being far more powerful, they were also warped by their domains and had distinctive physical characteristics that made them stand out from each other. I was mislead by Yad-Raghesh's description (colossal two-deaded tiger fiend) and I assumed that each Overlord was physically unique.

After reading the Lords of Dust article on Dragon Magazine 337, I knew I had made a mistake since those portraits depict normal rakshasas albeit far more powerful, yet I still think that having some warped Overlords throws in some fun and makes the players feel the raw power of Khyber's blood.

[/off topic]

On another note, I also found some discordancy on the prakhutus' statistics: in some cases they are normal rakshasas, in other cases they're ak'chazar rakshasas. In my campaign, all prakhutus are ak'chazar rakshasas (except in the cases of Korliak, Mazyralyx, and Mordakhesh) and they have sorcerer (instead of wizard) levels and/or prestige classes level. In Hektula's particular case, however, I felt she deserved a special treatment due to her librarian and scribe tasks, so I gave her the Arcane PreparationCArc and the Scribe Scroll feats to reflect her ability to prepare spells from the dusty tomes stored in Ashtakala's vaults.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by Ogiwan:

Truth be told, I like the idea of each of the Rajahs being unique. Of course, how many Rajahs will the PCs actually fight in the course of a campaign? If its more than one, the DM is a sadist.

That said, isn't the Rajah trapped in Mel-Aqat the Fleshraker (or something like that) of Wyatt's (quite excellent, IMO) Claws of the Tiger? The only good book of the War-Torn series, IMO.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by lord_gore:

isn't the Rajah trapped in Mel-Aqat the Fleshraker

I double checked and you're right: it should be Shudra the Fleshrender. Thanks for the info!
The list has been update accordingly. Enjoy!
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by ellorin:

Then I went completely off-board by stating that, while all the fiends were spawned by Khyber's spilled blood, the Rajahs were different from the standard rakshasas: besides being far more powerful, they were also warped by their domains and had distinctive physical characteristics that made them stand out from each other. I was mislead by Yad-Raghesh's description (colossal two-headed tiger fiend) and I assumed that each Overlord was physically unique.

After reading the Lords of Dust article on Dragon Magazine 337, I knew I had made a mistake since those portraits depict normal rakshasas albeit far more powerful, yet I still think that having some warped Overlords throws in some fun and makes the players feel the raw power of Khyber's blood.

Strange...I failed to notice that. If anything, Sul Khatesh's favourite form sounds nothing like a rakshasa, not to mention Katashka's depiction in Dragons of Eberron.

Incidentally, in my next campaign I might use dear old Sul Khatesh and I am strongly considering using some...Lolth elements. No, seriously. Not the drow parts, of course, but I did imagine the Keeper of Secrets as a huge, bloated spider in the center of her web gathering dark knowledge, using part of it as bait and devouring the fools who are trapped in the aforementioned web. Consider it an alternative form(the humanoid one? Probably a shadow version of the perfect Eladrin-and then there is the article's, naturally.). Thus, the MM3 Lolth stats with a modification or two would suffice.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by Hellcow:

After reading the Lords of Dust article on Dragon Magazine 337, I knew I had made a mistake since those portraits depict normal rakshasas albeit far more powerful, yet I still think that having some warped Overlords throws in some fun and makes the players feel the raw power of Khyber's blood.

The Overlords aren't rakshasas. I don't have the article in front of me, but the quote from my ORIGINAL draft of it states "The top tier belongs to the Overlords. These spirits are also known as rakshasa rajahs, as they ruled these lesser spirits in the dawn of time, but each Overlord is a unique and powerful spirit, not simply an advanced rakshasa." Likewise, in the 4E ECG, note that Bel Shalor doesn't have the rakshasa keyword. The essential idea behind the Overlords' advanced Change Form is that they are what they want to be. Their true forms are unique; Tiamat, for example, would be a five-headed dragon.

You say that "the portraits depict normal rakshasas". That's because the portraits are all of normal rakshasas. The Overlords are bound, so the images are of the rakshasas and other creatures that serve them: Durastoran Wyrmbreaker; Hektula the Bloody Scribe; Kashtarhak the Voice of Chaos; and so on. But these are prakhutu, not Overlords. The only Overlord pictured is Sul Khatesh, who doesn't look like a rakshasa - and even then, that's simply a form she likes. She could be whatever she wants, and each Overlord should be different.


Originally posted by Hellcow:

I'll update the table by removing the source and notes entries on Draal Khatuur. I'd appreciate a lot if you could give me her stats and domains so I can update the list.

I'm not comfortable posting her full stats until I check with Paizo, but I see nothing wrong with posting her stat block. Her name is actually Dral Khatuur (not Draal), the Heart of Winter. She's a Druid 25/Sorcerer 15/Frost Mage 10, with the domains of Death, Cold, and Winter (something called out in the article as being an unusual level of power).

I've replaced the Madness and Shadow domains with Darkness and Truth: I felt that the Madness domain was more fitting to the followers of the Daelkyr, and the Shadow was Bel Shalor's area of influence, but Darkness is a close fit.

I wouldn't swap Madness for Truth, personally. The reason she's called the Truth in the Darkness is because the shadows hold truths that will drive you mad. If you read her write-up, she's all about madness; "Fearsome truths are hidden in the shadows. Secrets of magic. The hidden thoughts of those you consider your friends. The terrible deeds of ancestors. The moment you will die. Tul Oreshka embodies these horrible secrets. Her actions are never predictable, and she can be as much of a threat to her allies as to her enemies. Anyone who passes by her prison may suffer nightmares or hear terrible things in ghostly whispers, and children born or conceived near her tomb are always insane. Her release would be heralded by a wave of madness: she is not a subtle force." If I was to change anything, it would be to drop Shadow/Darkness for Truth; the darkness element is far less important than the madness - the fact that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Does this overlap with the Daelkyr? Sure. But she was part of Eberron for hundreds of thousands of years before the Daelkyr showed up. She reflects the fear and threat of madness that lurks in every living thing. The Daelkyr are also of a lower power level than the Overlords - notably, they don't have domains. She is an embodiment of madness; they are lords of the Realm of Madness. Two different things.

Beyond this, I'm not personally concerned with the idea of Overlords overlapping in individual categories, as long as the combination is unique. Rak Tulkhesh is the Rage of War, and his domains are War and Hatred. Per his description, "Rak Tulkhesh embodies the hatred and bloodlust that drives mortals to war" - which is a different thing that the destruction caused by war. The Unmaker might also be hatred, but it's hatred pushed in a different direction. If you look to the actual gods, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are all aspects of War and share the domain; it's the combination of domains that defines them. I don't see any harm in trading Shadow for Darkness. But there is a difference between a spirit of War and Hatred and one of War and Destruction, in my opinion. Rak Tulkhesh thrives on agression itself. He drives people to war. The destruction it causes is an afterthought to him - not his fundamental nature.

But that's just my opinion, of course.
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by lord_gore:

If its more than one, the DM is a sadist.

I feel I have to improve my bluff skills.

Sul Khatesh's favourite form sounds nothing like a rakshasa

Yes, you're right. But remember that Sul Khatesh is the Keeper of Secrets and his form just reflect those mysteries so, as far as we know, she could very well look like a normal rakshasa if unveiled from those shadows. And that would require a truly epic hero!

I am stron;y considering using some...Lolth elements

I too was planning to use a spider overlord, something like Miska the Wolf-Spider from "The Rod of Seven Parts" (AD&D): a three-headed, four-armed huge spider. Talk about nightmares...
Anyway, using an already fleshed out 4e Demon Lord will surely save your time: as you noted yourself, just a few tweaks and she's ready to battle your adventurers.

The Overlords aren't rakshasas.

I then didn't go too far off the mark, even if deceived by those prakhutus' portraits, when I said that I felt Rajahs to be unique. They ARE unique forces, stemming out from the blood of creation itself. I'll just stick to the unwritten rule of the distinctive tiger part of the Rajahs (head, fur, eyes, paws, tail, etc.) being the only common thing they share, along with the power.

I'm not comfortable posting her full stats until I check with Paizo, but I see nothing wrong with posting her stat block. Her name is actually Dral Khatuur (not Draal), the Heart of Winter. She's a Druid 25 / Sorcerer 15 / Frost Mage 10, with the domains of Death, Cold, and Winter (something called out in the article as being an unusual level of power).

That's exactly what I hoped you could provide me with. Many thanks for being so helpful!
To be honest, when I first saw her name I thought: "What? A Dhakaani name for a rakshasa rajah?". Anyway, I don't think she's at an unusual level of power if compared to the other Na-Vakhtis: the average sits at a truly fiendish CR of about 65: 20 HD, 40 class levels and a generous +5 for all the uber-powered traits. The lowest-ranking rajah who ironically is also mistaken for a deity, Katashka the Gatekeeper, has a CR of 55 and Dral Khatuur is only 75...

I wouldn't swap Madness for Truth, personally. The reason she's called the Truth in the Darkness is because the shadows hold truths that will drive you mad. If you read her write-up, she's all about madness; "Fearsome truths are hidden in the shadows. Secrets of magic. The hidden thoughts of those you consider your friends. The terrible deeds of ancestors. The moment you will die. Tul Oreshka embodies these horrible secrets. Her actions are never predictable, and she can be as much of a threat to her allies as to her enemies. Anyone who passes by her prison may suffer nightmares or hear terrible things in ghostly whispers, and children born or conceived near her tomb are always insane. Her release would be heralded by a wave of madness: she is not a subtle force."  If I was to change anything, it would be to drop Shadow/Darkness for Truth; the darkness element is far less important than the madness - the fact that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

I'm sorry but I fail to see the madness in there. Even the last word says quite the contrary. But I can see your point, being the Truth domain a sissy one: mass true seeing at 9th-level? Otherwise than that, I really don't see insanity in her description, rather unbearable knowledge for the commoner so I'd go with Knowledge as an alternative option. Maybe even a Knowledge and Truth could work.

Beyond this, I'm not personally concerned with the idea of Overlords overlapping in individual categories, as long as the combination is unique. Rak Tulkhesh is the Rage of War, and his domains are War and Hatred. Per his description, "Rak Tulkhesh embodies the hatred and bloodlust that drives mortals to war" - which is a different thing that the destruction caused by war. The Unmaker might also be hatred, but it's hatred pushed in a different direction. If you look to the actual gods, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are all aspects of War and share the domain; it's the combination of domains that defines them. I don't see any harm in trading Shadow for Darkness. But there is a difference between a spirit of War and Hatred and one of War and Destruction, in my opinion. Rak Tulkhesh thrives on aggression itself. He drives people to war. The destruction it causes is an afterthought to him - not his fundamental nature.

I totally agree on your reasoning about the overlapping domain and I will try to fix those domains, especially on the definition (that list was a draft, and I was figuring out how to work with domains). Only thing I can add is that I didn't modify the already given domains (save for Tul Oreshka): those are the ones given in the Eternal Evil article but the forum didn't keep the formatting (should be fixed now). Should I consider it as a review and put it in the table?

But that's just my opinion, of course.

^_^

List's updated, as usual. Enjoy!
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by Hellcow:

I'm sorry but I fail to see the madness in there. Even the last word says quite the contrary. But I can see your point, being the Truth domain a sissy one: mass true seeing at 9th-level? Otherwise than that, I really don't see insanity in her description, rather unbearable knowledge for the commoner so I'd go with Knowledge as an alternative option. Maybe even a Knowledge and Truth could work.

If the text doesn't make it clear, I suppose I'm to blame for that. But as the person who created Tul Oreshka, she's supposed to be the embodiment of the Lovecraftian concept of secrets man wasn't meant to know. On a mundane level, this could come to your every failure (both past and yet to come), the true thoughts of those you think to be your friends, the worst experiences in your life that you have suppressed and forgotten to keep going... the things that are true but which we ignore and avoid in our everyday lives. On a less mundane level, this could be the way in which the Prophecy actually defines reality; the horror of what awaits you in Dolurrh; the fragile nature of the border between our world and, say, Xoriat; the true nature of time; what really WAS lurking in your closet when you were a child; and far worse things I can't even conceive of because I, Keith, am a mortal human. These aren't things that you as DM could just say "Oh, she explains the Prophecy to you", because the mortal human mind can't assimilate that knowledge; if she plants it in your head, revealing the true shape and form of reality, she will break your mind.

The vital point of the Overlords is that they aren't gods; they are the embodiments of terrifying things. Tul Oreshka isn't simply a goddess of knowledge; she is the embodiment of the knowledge you don't want to know, of truths that will drive you mad.

At least, that's what I was going for. ;)
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

To amend your list, Lord Gore, I do believe the Scar that Abides should have the Hatred domain too. The "scar that abides" refers to hatred itself, a seething, wallowing hatred that festers inside the soul, scabbing over into a loathing, brooding wrath that cannot be abated.
I agree with Tyranny as well, and I forget if there's a domain for Vengeance or not, but he should probably have it to. 
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Originally posted by Madfox11:

Shouldn't Tiamat be added to the list? I am not sure whether or not she is a rajah by the book, but she is definitely an overlord and she is the embodiment of greed, arrogance and wrath of the dragons.

Note that the OP does mention her.
 

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