The players know too much

Nevvur · Nov 24, 2015

Just wanted to see how people feel about players having access to the campaigns/modules in AL, or running through them a second (or third...) time with new characters. With the limitations imposed by AL guidelines, DMs are pretty limited in what they can do to mix things up and keep them fresh.

Does it decrease the sense of tension or drama? Is it handy having someone know what's going on in case the rest of the players feel stuck? What has your experience been with this situation? When it detracts from a game, how do you address it?

A slightly disappointing account of Oubliette of Fort Iron below
[sblock]
One of the players blurted out something about the winding tunnel resembling intestines, followed by comparing the Shards of Ogremoch to turds, and the shape of the acid lake resembling a stomach. I had planned on drawing a minimap on the side of the battlemat to track their progress through the dungeon, thinking it would be cool to see their reactions when the nature of the oubliette finally dawned on them. I sort of felt like he robbed both myself and the other players of this reveal early on. I actually don't know for a fact that this person has access to the Expeditions modules, but he's made a few other uncanny observations in other modules. [/sblock]

Tyranthraxus · Nov 24, 2015

I think when you have scenario replayability you are always going to get those who are poor metagamers and blurt out stuff like that. Or the guy might just be observant and has no mental to speech filter and blurts out exactly what he thinks he sees.

There arnt many ways around it, but a possible hack can be to run some really old season 1 stuff intermittently.. stuff that might not get played too much anymore.

Steve_MND · Nov 24, 2015

Whenever I first sit down to run, I see who has already familiar with the mod, and ask that they try to please keep any out-of-character knowledge to a minimum, and to allow the players who have not played it yet to take the lead when at all possible. Unless the player in question is a jerk (intentionally or unintentionally), that reminder is usually enough to keep them from making any obvious reveals and ruining things for the new guys.

Also, on a related note, I rather like how many modules (Oubliette obviously not being one of them due to its short length) have more possible encounters/areas than one would be likely to fit in a standard 4-hour time slot. This allows for a certain amount of replayability by choosing encounters that your group hadn't done the last time they were in there.

Nutation · Nov 24, 2015

It certainly damages dramatic tension, but people around here (Los Angeles) who have already played something are pretty good about knowingly walking into ambushes.

On the other side of the question, replay provides at least one big advantage - in LG and Pathfinder Society, I have to haul around a list of modules I've played / modules I've judged. If the scheduled module falls through for some reason, we players all have to huddle and compare notes to see what substitute module is acceptable to all.

frupton · Nov 24, 2015

Steve_MND said:
Whenever I first sit down to run, I see who has already familiar with the mod, and ask that they try to please keep any out-of-character knowledge to a minimum, and to allow the players who have not played it yet to take the lead when at all possible. Unless the player in question is a jerk (intentionally or unintentionally), that reminder is usually enough to keep them from making any obvious reveals and ruining things for the new guys.

I do this as well. Most replayers are pretty good about behaving. There are a small number of jerks who aren't, but they're very much in the minority, at least around here.

Regarding Oubliette of Fort Iron, it's not all that unusual for new players to figure out the "big picture" fairly quickly, i.e.by the time they get to the second room or so.

Nevvur · Nov 24, 2015

frupton said:
I do this as well. Most replayers are pretty good about behaving. There are a small number of jerks who aren't, but they're very much in the minority, at least around here.

Regarding Oubliette of Fort Iron, it's not all that unusual for new players to figure out the "big picture" fairly quickly, i.e.by the time they get to the second room or so.

True, and it could be a credit to my descriptions outside the box text, but as I said, this player made some uncanny comments in the past. He said when he first joined us at my Expeditions table that it was his first experience playing in Adventurer's League, but he seems to know what's supposed to be going on in each module. Here's another example from Shackles of Blood.

[sblock] I made a number of changes to this module, including the setup for the arena fight. Mechanically, it's a cool scenario, and I wanted the players to focus on that, rather than wrestle with the morality of fighting halfling captives. Thus, I changed the Dark Alliance representatives to actual orcs. Storywise, they had been raiders harassing Hillsfarian villages, thwarted and captured, then purchased by Mags, who had been looking for competent gladiators for this event. I still used the thug/spy/druid stat blocks to keep things AL legal, but the fighters themselves were real orcs, not costumed.

At one point, the aforementioned player asked, "So they're really orcs, not just disguised?" [/sblock]

Steve_MND · Nov 24, 2015

frupton said:
Regarding Oubliette of Fort Iron, it's not all that unusual for new players to figure out the "big picture" fairly quickly, i.e.by the time they get to the second room or so.

Wish my hillbilly dwarven druid had realized that a little earlier... say, before he started giddily rolling around in the first twisty pasageway, talking about how "why, this here's some good city-grade fancy mud, like ye'd get in one of them there expensified Mulmaster spas, I'd reckon!" Emit's not real bright.

ccs · Nov 25, 2015

Nevvur said:
True, and it could be a credit to my descriptions outside the box text, but as I said, this player made some uncanny comments in the past. He said when he first joined us at my Expeditions table that it was his first experience playing in Adventurer's League, but he seems to know what's supposed to be going on in each module. Here's another example from Shackles of Blood.

[sblock] I made a number of changes to this module, including the setup for the arena fight. Mechanically, it's a cool scenario, and I wanted the players to focus on that, rather than wrestle with the morality of fighting halfling captives. Thus, I changed the Dark Alliance representatives to actual orcs. Storywise, they had been raiders harassing Hillsfarian villages, thwarted and captured, then purchased by Mags, who had been looking for competent gladiators for this event. I still used the thug/spy/druid stat blocks to keep things AL legal, but the fighters themselves were real orcs, not costumed.

At one point, the aforementioned player asked, "So they're really orcs, not just disguised?" [/sblock]

So did you ask him why he wondered that?

Nevvur · Nov 25, 2015

I didn't, and I'll freely admit that my suspicions are both inconsequential and based on shaky evidence. Whether or not he knows the modules won't change the fact that he's welcome at the table. I know how I'd feel if a DM didn't want me around based purely on the fact I've also DMd the module he's running, and a player knowing a module (for whatever reason) is effectively no different.

That said, the point of this thread was not to examine the particular examples I used to illustrate my experience with player metagaming. The point is clearly stated in the questions posed in the OP.

Tyranthraxus · Nov 25, 2015

One of the side effects of the low number (by edition) releases for 5e, is that a lot more people are buying everything thats released which effectively means a lot of players own the Modules. Im not sure thats a good thing (considering the majority are not dms). IVe had players actually flipping through to the monster section at the back of the book while Ive been running the scenario. They of course deny it, but Im no Dumb Dumb.