D&D 3E/3.5 1e/3e Style Experience Calculator

Like many, the wackyness of CR's bug me. But instead of whining , I've decided to come up with a 1st edition-style experience point table.

For those who aren't familiar, the 1E way of calculating XP was based on exactly what the creature could do. As converted for 3E, it would include considerations for number of attacks, hit points, saving throw bonuses, average damage, feats, special attacks, special qualities.... ya know, everything.

Before I start creating, it'd be really spiffy if something like this already exists in 3E, that way I wouldn't have to create it from scratch Anyone know of anything remotely like this? Would anyone be interested in seeing something like this if it doesn't already exist?

Check out this CR-building project. All special abilities and such are given a CR-fraction. Sum it up, and you get a CR. A warning though; CR is scaled differently in that system, but it's not a huge deal.

If you're talking about assigning raw XP values to monsters, I would just give them the value that the party would get if it was the same CR as the monster.

Check out this CR-building project.

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Hmm, I read through that (with much glaring at the header font), but it's not quite what I'm looking for because, well, it seems to be a lot more complicated than what I'm looking for, and it's not as accurate as what I'd like. And from DonAdam's comment...

If you're talking about assigning raw XP values to monsters, I would just give them the value that the party would get if it was the same CR as the monster.

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...I'm thinking that I should explain myself a bit more. (And I don't see how it'd be possible to assign raw XP values to creatures based on their CR and the party levels... cuz that is CR, as near as I can see )

Ok, first off recognize that this is just an example so everyone can know what I'm talking about, NOT any kind of permanent set of values. Basically, it would assign flat XP values (like 1st and 2nd edition. This means doing away with CRs) based on various creature attributes. Kinda like...

AC greater than 10 could be worth 1 XP/point above 10
HP would be worth it's amount in XP
Total attack bonuses from a full round attack could be worth 1 XP/plus
Sneak Attack would be worth 10 XP/die of extra damage
Etc.

So a 1st level fighter who has 15 Str, 13 Con, 12 Dex, a chain shirt, a large shield, and Weapon Focus would be worth 7 XP (for AC 17) + 11 XP (for 11 HP) + 4 (for +4 to attacks from Str, BAB, and Focus) for a total of 22 XP.

Obviously, many factors would be included in the calculation, like damage, spellcasting ability, DR, SR, and on and on.

That way, a 1st level fighter with a great sword, platemail, and 3 18's isn't worth the same as a 1st level fighter with 3 12's, no armor, and a dagger.

Now that I've made myself clear, or at least clearer, what do you guys think of the idea?

I think it won't work. Not meaning to be harsh, but the old system worked because of the old experience needed to go up levels kept doubling.

For example, and 5th level fighter is killing Ogres, and lets say they give him 200 XP each with your system. He would have to kill 25 Ogres to get to 6th level. So far, so good.

Now the same fighter is 10th level, he now needs to kill 50 Ogres to get to 11th level. But it is a LOT easier for a 10th lvl fighter to kill 50 Ogres, than for a 5th level fighter to kill 25.

Now, once he is 15th level, he only needs to kill 75. Heck, at that level, he may be killing more than one per round, and they probably can only hit him on a 20. With the right magic, he could go up to 16th level in just one big, yet safe, encounter.


The reason it worked in 1e/2e was of the drastic increase in the number of XP needed to go up a level later on, it was all but a waste of time to kill Ogres at 15th level.

Now, you could also change the amount of XP needed to go up a level, but pretty soon you stop playing DnD....


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I think it won't work. Not meaning to be harsh, but the old system worked because of the old experience needed to go up levels kept doubling.

Now, you could also change the amount of XP needed to go up a level, but pretty soon you stop playing DnD....

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Yeah, I understand that the XP required to go up would have to increase, but I don't think that's that huge of a change... a few (20, to be exact) numbers in the PHB seems like a small houserule compared to what many people add/change/remove in their home games

And I really don't see why changing the XP table would mean that the game would be nearly mutated enough to not be considered DnD.... I mean, maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think of CR as one of the sacred cows of Dungeons and Dragons... especially since the years where DnD didn't have CRs outnumber, by far, the years that DnD does have CRs. Then again, I could just be reading too far into what you said

Coredump said:

I think it won't work. Not meaning to be harsh, but the old system worked because of the old experience needed to go up levels kept doubling.

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Such a system as suggested by CombatWombat51 has worked fine in my 3e campaign. Sure we are only 4th level so far, but no problems yet. I basically use the chart found in the old 1st edition DM's guide modified for 3e terms/abilities (class abilities, feats, skills, etc.).

i.e. an unmodified Gargoyle is worth 520 XPs: 90 Base Value + 5/HP (190) +40 per "special ability" (+200 total - HP bonus from Con, natural AC, multiattack feat, Freeze ability, Damage Reduction, Weapon Finesse Feat). I know this seems too much trouble than what its worth but after many, many years of use - such a system is second nature to me. That is actually a lot less than what a gargoyle's CR would suggest but that doesn't bother me (or my players) since I also award bonus XPs from other sources (detailed below).

I also use the Modifying Encounter Levels XP award adjustment as found in the 3e DM's Guide.

Half as difficult = 1/2 XP
Significantly less difficult = 2/3 XP
Significantly more difficult = 3/2 XP
Twice as difficult = 2x XP

I also award bonus XP for good role playing, traps, and story awards. This method might not be for everyone but it works in my campaign.

For example, and 5th level fighter is killing Ogres, and lets say they give him 200 XP each with your system. He would have to kill 25 Ogres to get to 6th level. So far, so good.

Now the same fighter is 10th level, he now needs to kill 50 Ogres to get to 11th level. But it is a LOT easier for a 10th lvl fighter to kill 50 Ogres, than for a 5th level fighter to kill 25.

Now, once he is 15th level, he only needs to kill 75. Heck, at that level, he may be killing more than one per round, and they probably can only hit him on a 20. With the right magic, he could go up to 16th level in just one big, yet safe, encounter.

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But now he isn't facing just Ogres, but Ogres with class levels and/or with templates added (thus increasing the challenge of the encounter and the amount of XPs they are worth). It might be easy for that 10th level fighter to defeat a simple Ogre, but what about that Half-fiend Ogre Fighter? Besides, if it is that easy for a 15th level fighter to kill normal Ogres, then he wouldn't be earning any XPs from such an encounter, now would he. I have always awarded experience (even back in the 1st edition days) for defeating challenges (not necessarily just for killing things).

Now, you could also change the amount of XP needed to go up a level, but pretty soon you stop playing DnD....

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That's funny, here I thought increasing or slowing the amount of XP awarded/needed was actually a variant rule found in the 3e DM's Guide. I guess that doesn't count as true D&D.

Cheers,
Tim

Hmmmm

Now, you could also change the amount of XP needed to go up a level, but pretty soon you stop playing DnD....

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I wish I could edit this...
I was not at all clear in what I meant. I did not mean what I said. And what I did mean, I will retract as not actually relevant.


Look, you can make anything 'work'. I have a friend that gives XP based on hours played, slightly modified by how productive we were. His theory is that we are doing stuff, so we get exp. Sometimes we are killing, sometimes other stuff. And yeah, this pretty much 'works'; but that doesn't mean it is a great system. The XP system inherrently has a lot of flexibility in it, since it doesn't lead to character death, and a 'mistake' (too much or too little) can be easily fixed the next time. So sure, if you are more comfortable, go ahead.


CW,
I think you are openning a can of worms. Not only do you have to determine the XP for each monster, but now you have to figure out how much to change the XP character Lvls. I think you could be setting yourself up for a bunch of playtesting type experimenting. Now, you could 'tweak' it and it would probably work fine (see above) but at that point, why not just use the DMG system and 'tweak' that?

Turg,
Let me get this straight, you give each creature a set amount of XP, and then give the characters a percentage of that, depending on difficulty. So, how is this different than the DMG version? The only difference I see, is that your method provides less flexibility in assigning the original XP, less flexibility in assigning a modifying percentage modifier, and more flexibility on when to use a modifier.
The DMG method does assign a set XP amount. (CR*300) and it is a 'normal' difficulty against a 4 person party of a level = CR. If the CR is greater/lower, than the XP is 'modified' for being more or less difficult.

But now he isn't facing just Ogres, but Ogres with class levels and/or with templates added

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No, he isn't. I created the scenario. I am pointing out a flaw in the system. Now, you can tweak the reality, by making sure harder Ogres are now there, but that is just 'fixing' a weak part of the system. Remember, the original proposal had nothing to indicate modifying due to difficulty.
And even assuming there are some bigger baddies there, the 'flunky' Ogres still provide too big of a boost to the XP total. A 15th lvl fighter is more than 3x a 5th level fighter, but the gained XP is still 1/3. Now, your system seems to modify that further, but you are introducing as much 'tweaking' as needed in the DMG system.
Lets say the fighter attacks a group of Ogres, including some really tough ones (levels, magi, whatever) if the *encounter* was tough, do you still modify the XP from the base ogres??

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Coredump - I can see we have a difference of opinions here: You think it's too much work, I don't. Neither of us is going to persuade the other, so I suggest we just leave it at that I do appreciate your input though. In fact, I probably would have forgotten to increase the XP required/level until I noticed that characters were getting levels too quickly.

Turgenev - How long have you been using the 1e table in 3e? I thought about just using it as is, but I thought that there would end up being too many gray areas between "Special Ability" bonuses and "Exception Ability" bonuses. Do you have any problems with that? I think that I wouldn't have too much of a problem, but one of my players who's interested in DMing, and using this new (er, old) XP calculator might get too many headaches from deciding what ability counts as what. Does it work well enough for you?

On an only slightly related topic...

Our group has a bias towards 1e xp as well, in that we like the exponential rate, but we like the CR system.

As long as you're not running 3e adventures (which assume rapid level advancement) you'll be alright.

Since we just like the rate of advancement, one of my players, a math professor, analyzed Keep on the Borderlands and (I think) Desert of Desolation, as well as checking out a table in an old DMG that was very similar to challenge ratings. His conclusion was that if you divide all experience gained by the square root of your level you end up with a 1e-like rate of advancement.