Do Christians and muslims worship the same God?

delericho · Dec 18, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
Islam is one of the Abrahamic faiths. As such, most people who teach religion or theology would probably assert that Muslims believe in the same deity as do Jews and Christians, and just call Him by a different name.

And yet the traits ascribed to God by the three are quite different. In particular, I'm thinking of the Christian formulation of the Trinity.

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 18, 2015

delericho said:
And yet the traits ascribed to God by the three are quite different. In particular, I'm thinking of the Christian formulation of the Trinity.

Not all Christian denominations have the same belief in the triune nature of God- see Unitarians:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Other nontrinitarian Christian denominations include Oneness Pentecostalism, United Pentecostal Church International and the True Jesus Church.

delericho · Dec 18, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
Not all Christian denominations have the same belief in the triune nature of God- see Unitarians:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Other nontrinitarian Christian denominations include Oneness Pentecostalism, United Pentecostal Church International and the True Jesus Church.

Interesting.

But it's at least valid to ask if even they are following the same god as the trinitarian denominations - there comes a point where the notion of God is sufficiently different to dispute that. Sky blue and midnight blue are both types of blue, but they're not the same.

Tonguez · Dec 18, 2015

Eltab said:
It is possible that (1) the Being who called Abraham "My friend" is the same Being (2) who Jesus of Nazareth described as his "heavenly Father". But it is not possible that same Being (3) sent a messenger to reveal Himself to Muhammad; that Being is described differently..

I'm going to have to ask you to give examples (sourced from said Holy Books) of what these apparent differences in description are. I'm not aware of any fundamental inherent differences

Tonguez · Dec 18, 2015

delericho said:
Interesting.

But it's at least valid to ask if even they are following the same god as the trinitarian denominations - there comes a point where the notion of God is sufficiently different to dispute that. Sky blue and midnight blue are both types of blue, but they're not the same.

Studies have shown that perception of colour is very much culturally determined and not in fact an inherent quality. Perceptions of Blueness might be entirely different depending on the viewer, so Sky Blue and Midnight Blue might look indistinguishable from each other or any variation from grey to purple or even green.

To fit the analogy the perception of God by a particular culture or denomination might be different but that does not necessarily follow that the god itself is different

Also every Trinitanarian sects identify God the Father who Jews and Muslims would identify as their God, Trinitanarians just add God the Sona nd the Holy Spirit as equally God

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 18, 2015

delericho said:
Interesting.

But it's at least valid to ask if even they are following the same god as the trinitarian denominations - there comes a point where the notion of God is sufficiently different to dispute that. Sky blue and midnight blue are both types of blue, but they're not the same.

The faiths each have distinguishable conceptions as to the NATURE of the divine creator- and in one sense, Christianity is the odd one out- So, each faith has grounds to claim the others are not following the same divine being.

But since they each claim Abraham as a founder/prophet...

Dannyalcatraz · Dec 18, 2015

Tonguez said:
To fit the analogy the perception of God by a particular culture or denomination might be different but that does not necessarily follow that the god itself is different

See also the story of the Blind Men Describing An Elephant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

delericho · Dec 18, 2015

Tonguez said:
Studies have shown that perception of colour is very much culturally determined and not in fact an inherent quality.

Frequencies of light are objective and measurable. Sky blue and midnight blue are not the same, even if local conditions mean that they can't always be told apart.

Edit to expand:

On the one hand, we have two things (sky blue, midnight blue) that are clearly similar (both shades of blue) and that can't always be told apart, but that we know are not the same thing.

On the other hand, we have two things that are clearly similar (God) but which have some differences in definition (trinitarian vs unitarian). Are these the same thing, distinguished only because of difference in perception, or are these different things because the definitions are different?

I don't have an answer to that. All I'm saying is that it's valid to ask the question.

Umbran · Dec 18, 2015

delericho said:
Frequencies of light are objective and measurable.

Oh, boy, you picked the *wrong* analogy

Neither "sky blue" nor "midnight blue" is fully characterized by a single wavelength of light. Both are names for *human experiences*, not single wavelengths of light. Midnight blue, for example, is actually more about intensity than wavelength, it is about the *lack* of light. If it is mostly dark, and kinda bluish, you'll call it midnight blue.

Moreover, the human eye is a strange thing. It isn't like it has receptors for each and every wavelength. We typically have three types of photo receptors, which each respond differently to lights of different wavelengths - one is most sensitive in the blue range, one in green, and one in yellow. Color perception starts by comparing the relative strengths of responses of the three types. It is like having three variables (S, M, and L), and any responses that give the same set of values of S, M, and L, will look like the same color, to us. And there are different ways to achieve that. So, there are many different sets of photons that we would call "sky blue", rather than one wavelength we can unambiguously call "sky blue".

On the other hand, we have two things that are clearly similar (God) but which have some differences in definition (trinitarian vs unitarian).

Um, well, that one is sticky - we have to things that appear similar to an outsider, but which are *reported* as having different qualities (like trinitarian vs unitarian). Reports cannot be naively taken to be definitions.

Are these the same thing, distinguished only because of difference in perception, or are these different things because the definitions are different?

I don't have an answer to that. All I'm saying is that it's valid to ask the question.

Is it valid to ask? I mean, the answers are generally non-falsifiable, so what's the point of asking, other than to note that we can't be sure of the answer?

tomBitonti · Dec 18, 2015

Was going to reply but Morris beat me to it.

The physics of light and color as arising as a perception of wavelength is very different than the perception of color. The whole chain is fascinating (Feynman has a chapter on it in his lectures) but the end result is a big separation.

Out of all of it there are interesting and very clear results. Folks (including well practiced artists) do not has a precise sense of color. Perfect hue does not exist as an analogue to perfect pitch. Color perception is very sensitive to context, meaning, light conditions and adjacency.

See, for example "Interaction of Color", 1963, Yale University, by Josef Albers.

Also, http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_36.html

Thx!
TomB