Axanar meets legal resistence from CBS

Cor Azer · Dec 31, 2015

Ryujin said:
No, it isn't an over simplification. It's an analogy. It's representative of the situation and doesn't preclude your statement regarding inequality of treatment. I can easily point to three campaigns, ranging from $50K to $200K+, for other Star Trek fan productions. These productions are also not one-offs, but rather ongoing series.

I didn't say 'oversimplification'. Just simplification, and in particular one that removes a rather important nuance: RPG companies specifically encourage players to make their own adventures and stories (in addition to hopefully purchasing their company-produced ones) - although with a few exceptions, they don't expect players to publish them from profit. It's not a far cry for players to go from making adventures for their own use to sharing with others, and so RPG companies don't frown on that as long there aren't copyright or trademark violations or implied endorsements.

Television and film companies certainly like for their to be (positive) buzz for their properties, but they don't generally encourage people to make their own stories set in those properties. That said, unless copyright and trademarks are infringed, there's not much they can do against fan fiction besides a stern glare.

HardcoreDandDGirl · Dec 31, 2015

ALso the whole 'not for profit' thing is tricky...

if I open a lemon aid stand, and hire my brother and his wife, and pay each 3x hire then min wage (7.25 an hour so 21.75 an hour) then pay myself as a manager double that (43.50 an hour), then spend $2,500 on supplies and licenses. at the end of week one I have spent 1,740 on my 2 employees, and 1,740 on my pay, and 2,500 on stuff so my over head is $5,980. If my sales came in at $6,000 that $20 profit is then 'reinvested' and week 2 I do the same thing, but with a $20 add in the newspaper. I still pay my 2 employees, and myself.

the company has 0 savings and 0 from the profit, but me and my 2 family members didn't 'volunteer our time' 'not for profits' still give profit to the people, just not investers... when you make $100 bake sale or lemonaid stand no one says anything... when you make $24000 in a mounth, and walk away with 'paychecks' of almost 7k your self and family members make almost another 7k people change there minds...

like umbra said "Scale matters"

Mallus · Dec 31, 2015

Umbran said:
I find it a little boggling that CBS can't come to an amicable deal with Hulu or Netflix for their content. Either one would *love* to be the place where folks can get new Trek, I suspect, as well as most of the rest of what CBS produces. And CBS could avoid all the cost and risk of operating a service, create content, and get paid for it through the license. *sigh*

I think it comes down to Netflix really wanting to be a studio/network a la HBO and having more control than CBS is willing to cede. Which would make Hulu a logical choice -- except Hulu is a partnership with NBC/Universal/Comcast (did I get that all right??) and currently offers *no* CBS programming (which I discovered when I tried to catch up w/Supergirl via Hulu).

Yes, but that's in part because 1) The prequels are now 10-15 years old! 2) Aren't considered very good. That's squeezing some good will marketing out of old content, which isn't much related to establishing and getting value out of new content.

All true. But I still find it weird that Disney is okay with free versions of the prequels while still selling them in multiple formats and CBS thinks Axanar warrants multiple lawsuits.

To my mind, anything that gets people talking about Star Trek in the current climate of Star Wars mania is a good thing.

Anything except suing the makers popular crowd-funded fan film, that is.

Umbran · Dec 31, 2015

HardcoreDandDGirl said:
ALso the whole 'not for profit' thing is tricky...

Yes. And to a certain extent, it is a red herring. It isn't a guideline for fair use (that guideline is for "non-profit educational" use, not just not-for-profit). This isn't educational.

The only thing that really matters is whether they had a clear agreement with CBS on whether Axanar was going to be okay. Nothing in the quotes I've seen suggests so - what Iv'e found says there were very big, open questions, and no blessing from CBS. This isn't a case of CBS going back on their word - it is a case of fans pushing the limit, and finding they went beyond it.

The makers of a property - be it Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, or any other popular or unpopular thing, do not owe the fans the right to do anything they darn well please.

Ryujin · Dec 31, 2015

Umbran said:
Yes. And to a certain extent, it is a red herring. It isn't a guideline for fair use (that guideline is for "non-profit educational" use, not just not-for-profit). This isn't educational.

The only thing that really matters is whether they had a clear agreement with CBS on whether Axanar was going to be okay. Nothing in the quotes I've seen suggests so - what Iv'e found says there were very big, open questions, and no blessing from CBS. This isn't a case of CBS going back on their word - it is a case of fans pushing the limit, and finding they went beyond it.

The makers of a property - be it Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, or any other popular or unpopular thing, do not owe the fans the right to do anything they darn well please.

You're absolutely right. In addition not defending copyright, in previous cases, does not mean that it cannot be enforced in subsequent cases, as the owner of intellectual property cannot be aware of all such breaches. To this day I still find old instances in which people have used my own photography, out of license, for their own enrichment.

This will likely come down to whether the meeting with CBS execs constitutes any sort of assurance that the Axanar folks acted upon in good faith, to their current detriment.

Umbran · Dec 31, 2015

Mallus said:
All true. But I still find it weird that Disney is okay with free versions of the prequels while still selling them in multiple formats and CBS thinks Axanar warrants multiple lawsuits.

I don't. The prequels are all their own content, and, as noted, were not considered great films. The fan activities around them probably aren't cutting into profits.

Establishing a precedent that you can make a *million dollar* fan film, however, opens up to making a sort of business out of such, which I am pretty sure CBS does not want.

For example - Michael Dorn has several times tried to get a "Captain Worf" series made, including trying to sell them on it for the 2017 show. Should Axanar succeed, what's to prevent Dorn from moving ahead with a multi-million dollar miniseries effort, possibly leveraging the same people with Dorn's face to drive the funding? That would surely be competition for CBS's new series, but would mean they'd have to deal with a beloved star to get them to stop. Not a position CBS would want to be in.

It is simply a case of policies not being ahead of what technology allows, really. Everyone's learning.

Anything except suing the makers popular crowd-funded fan film, that is.

Meh. I don't see as engaging the court in the matter is particularly problematic.

Ryujin · Dec 31, 2015

Umbran said:
I don't. The prequels are all their own content, and, as noted, were not considered great films. The fan activities around them probably aren't cutting into profits.

Establishing a precedent that you can make a *million dollar* fan film, however, opens up to making a sort of business out of such, which I am pretty sure CBS does not want.

For example - Michael Dorn has several times tried to get a "Captain Worf" series made, including trying to sell them on it for the 2017 show. Should Axanar succeed, what's to prevent Dorn from moving ahead with a multi-million dollar miniseries effort, possibly leveraging the same people with Dorn's face to drive the funding? That would surely be competition for CBS's new series, but would mean they'd have to deal with a beloved star to get them to stop. Not a position CBS would want to be in.

It is simply a case of policies not being ahead of what technology allows, really. Everyone's learning.

Meh. I don't see as engaging the court in the matter is particularly problematic.

Have you heard of "Star Trek: Renegades"? While it's not a million dollar budget series it does, in fact, involve one of the beloved characters from the original series, "Admiral Checkov." They have just completed funding of their second and third episodes, to the tune of almost $380K.

Again, full discolsure: I was a backer of their first film. As I found it to be disjointed, unnecessarily expository and, in my opinion generally bad, I did not take part in ongoing support.

Umbran · Dec 31, 2015

Ryujin said:
Have you heard of "Star Trek: Renegades"? While it's not a million dollar budget series it does, in fact, involve one of the beloved characters from the original series, "Admiral Checkov." They have just completed funding of their second and third episodes, to the tune of almost $380K.
.

I know of it, yes. I also know that the folks who make Renegades *sell* DVDs of the thing, which would seem a pretty blatant violation of CBS's usual policy. It is possible that they have some agreement with CBS, that Axanar doesn't have - given that they've got so many former Trek actors involved, I'd not be surprised. It is also possible that CBS will eventually close Renegades down, too.

Ryujin · Dec 31, 2015

Umbran said:
I know of it, yes. I also know that the folks who make Renegades *sell* DVDs of the thing, which would seem a pretty blatant violation of CBS's usual policy. It is possible that they have some agreement with CBS, that Axanar doesn't have - given that they've got so many former Trek actors involved, I'd not be surprised. It is also possible that CBS will eventually close Renegades down, too.

And yet "Axanar" has former Star Trek actors and people otherwise well known to CBS, from the production side. It's all a little higgledy-piggledy.

HardcoreDandDGirl · Dec 31, 2015

Ryujin said:
And yet "Axanar" has former Star Trek actors and people otherwise well known to CBS, from the production side. It's all a little higgledy-piggledy.

"You shouldn't insult my mother.."
"That other guy insulted your mother"
"I'l get to him, what's your excuse"

seems like "Hey this other person did it is the type of defense that didn't work in kindergarten, let alone in the business world.

Imagine standing before a judge and using this excuse for any other theft... "This other guy robed bank last week" I bet wouldn't cut it...

Axanar meets legal resistence from CBS

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