The importance of being a 20

Kithas · Feb 9, 2016

Georlik said:
Only if you have Mithril Heavy Armor.
Your other option would be to take Medium Armor Master (to be a stealth tank).

Mithril only works on half plate and scale now according to the dmg, still no heavy armor.

Also on savage attacker;
Looking at the average damage increase it is worse than a +2. Looking at what your %chance of getting a "good" roll are? It is very good. Basically it ups your chance of getting a "good" roll on your damage from ~50% to over 70%, that is a big increase. I define a good roll as over the average roll for the die.
Overall it is a very underrated feat and is definitely more useful than it looks.

TheLoneRanger1979 · Feb 9, 2016

Kithas said:
Mithril only works on half plate and scale now according to the dmg, still no heavy armor.

According to DMG:
"MITHRAL ARMOR
Armor (medium or heavy, but not hide), uncommon
Mithral is a light, flexible metal. A mithral chain shirt or breastplate can be worn under normal clothes. If the armor normally imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks or has a Strength requirement, the mithral version of the armor doesn't.

Rowenoake · Feb 16, 2016

Kithas, I agree that Savage Attacker gets a bit of a bad rap. Here are the damage calculations I did for it (hopefully they formatting will transfer reasonably well from Excel):

Die Size	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6
Avg Dmg	2.5	3.5	4.5	5.5	6.5	7
Savage Attacker	3.125	4.472222222	5.8125	7.15	8.486111111	8.359567901
SA DPA Increase	0.625	0.972222222	1.3125	1.65	1.986111111	1.359567901
SA % Increase	0.25	0.277777778	0.291666667	0.3	0.305555556	0.194223986
GWF Style	2.5	3.5	4.5	6.3	7.333333333	8.333333333
GWF DPA Increase	0	0	0	0.8	0.833333333	1.333333333
GWF % Increase	0	0	0	0.145454545	0.128205128	0.19047619
Both	3.125	4.472222222	5.8125	7.702	9.055169753	9.464925316
Comb Increase	0.625	0.972222222	1.3125	2.202	2.555169753	2.464925316
Comb % Increase	0.25	0.277777778	0.291666667	0.400363636	0.393103039	0.352132188

[/td]

The value of Savage Attacker increases quite nicely as the size of the die you are rolling goes up. If fact, with a Greataxe or Lance, you average almost 2 damage per attack more than base. Even with a Maul or Greatsword, it provides a larger impact than Great Weapon Fighting Style (though not much); both together can jump you up even higher. Also, since the wording states you can use it once per turn, you also get the feat on AoOs (should they arise).

The idea behind it can be fun to RP as well. Why are you're attacks so savage? It can make a nice extra dimension to the often sterile back and forth nature of combat.

Lejaun · Feb 16, 2016

I prefer raw stats over feats personally, but taking a feat instead of an ASI isn't going to hurt you at all and will give you a lot of different benefits. Take whatever fits your role and class best, and don't worry about taking longer to get 20 STR.

Kithas · Feb 16, 2016

Rowenoake said:
Kithas, I agree that Savage Attacker gets a bit of a bad rap. Here are the damage calculations I did for it (hopefully they formatting will transfer reasonably well from Excel):

Die Size 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 1d12 2d6
Avg Dmg 2.5 3.5 4.5 5.5 6.5 7
Savage Attacker 3.125 4.472222222 5.8125 7.15 8.486111111 8.359567901
SA DPA Increase 0.625 0.972222222 1.3125 1.65 1.986111111 1.359567901
SA % Increase 0.25 0.277777778 0.291666667 0.3 0.305555556 0.194223986
GWF Style 2.5 3.5 4.5 6.3 7.333333333 8.333333333
GWF DPA Increase 0 0 0 0.8 0.833333333 1.333333333
GWF % Increase 0 0 0 0.145454545 0.128205128 0.19047619
Both 3.125 4.472222222 5.8125 7.702 9.055169753 9.464925316
Comb Increase 0.625 0.972222222 1.3125 2.202 2.555169753 2.464925316
Comb % Increase 0.25 0.277777778 0.291666667 0.400363636 0.393103039 0.352132188

[/td]

The value of Savage Attacker increases quite nicely as the size of the die you are rolling goes up. If fact, with a Greataxe or Lance, you average almost 2 damage per attack more than base. Even with a Maul or Greatsword, it provides a larger impact than Great Weapon Fighting Style (though not much); both together can jump you up even higher. Also, since the wording states you can use it once per turn, you also get the feat on AoOs (should they arise).

The idea behind it can be fun to RP as well. Why are you're attacks so savage? It can make a nice extra dimension to the often sterile back and forth nature of combat.

I really appreciate your post with all the maths, mine is on a napkin somewhere.
The feat also works with Titan Slayer, Sneak Attack, Brutal Critical, and Hunter's Mark.

TheLoneRanger1979 · Feb 16, 2016

Lejaun said:
I prefer raw stats over feats personally, but taking a feat instead of an ASI isn't going to hurt you at all and will give you a lot of different benefits. Take whatever fits your role and class best, and don't worry about taking longer to get 20 STR.

Originally yes, i was either going to get the 20 ASAP or "eventually". However, what my current predicament is whether i should at all (for the price of a feat). My character concept will get 6 ASIs in total by lvl20 (if he lives as long). That is one less then a pure bread fighter (because of MC). One ASI already went into Str, the second one will go into Dex and the 3rd one will go into resilient wisdom. That is 3 ASIs used by level 10, and will round up my concept nicely. Even though it's way too early to think beyond level 10, i like to consider as many alternatives as possible (and play around with them on both paper and inside my head) on how to use those 3 remaining ASI's in a way that would be desirable for my concept, but at the same time not detrimental to our group in the long run and the later game stages....

TheLoneRanger1979 · Feb 16, 2016

Rowenoake said:
.... Even with a Maul or Greatsword, it provides a larger impact than Great Weapon Fighting Style (though not much); both together can jump you up even higher. Also, since the wording states you can use it once per turn, you also get the feat on AoOs (should they arise).
....

How do GWFs and SA stack by RAW? I mean, what is the mechanics behind it? Do you get 2 effective re-rolls (under right conditions)?

Rowenoake · Feb 16, 2016

TheLoneRanger1979 said:
How do GWFs and SA stack by RAW? I mean, what is the mechanics behind it? Do you get 2 effective re-rolls (under right conditions)?

Say you roll a d12. If you roll a 1 or 2, GWF comes into play and you re-roll it (we'll call this result A). Then you can use SA to roll all the damage again. If that rolls is a 1 or 2, you re-roll it again (which will be result B). Then you choose whether you take result A or result B.

Here are some example arrays of possible rolls: Case A (1, 4; 2, 11); Case B (2, 5; 2, 1); Case C (4; 12)

In Case A, you first roll a 1. GWF comes into play and you roll again, getting a 4.
Then you choose to use SA to re-roll.
The new roll results in a 2. GWF comes into play again and you get an 11.
Now, because of SA, you can choose either the 4 or the 11.

In Case B, you first roll a 2. GWF comes into play and you roll again, getting a 5.
Then you choose to use SA to re-roll.
The new roll results in a 2. GWF comes into play again and you get an 1.
Now, because of SA, you can choose either the 5 or the 1.

In Case C, you first roll a 4. GWF does not come into play.
Then you choose to use SA to re-roll.
The new roll results in a 12. GWF does not come into play.
Now, because of SA, you can choose either the 4 or the 12.

Of course, there are a lot more possible outcomes (20736 to be specific), but that should give you a better idea of how it would work at a table.

Sorry if I went a little overboard on the explanation; once a teacher, always a teacher, I suppose. B-)

TheLoneRanger1979 · Feb 17, 2016

Rowenoake said:
Sorry if I went a little overboard on the explanation; once a teacher, always a teacher, I suppose.

No need to be sorry, i actually appreciate detailed explanations!

And yours was not just informative, but it also dealt away with any uncertainties i might have had.

EDIT: this makes SA and TWFs quite a powerful combo....

mellored · Feb 17, 2016

When comparing savage attacker to +2 str you need to factor in to-hit. You do 0 on a miss.

Also, I don't think it works with sneak attack or hunter's mark.