D&D 5E Bats and Silence

UngeheuerLich · Feb 10, 2016

Oy yes.

Saeviomagy · Feb 10, 2016

I would actually expect that something like a zone of silence would dissuade almost any natural creature, including most people. Close your eyes and get someone to hold their hands over your ears without touching you. It just feels odd, even if you do it in quiet environment.

Jester David · Feb 10, 2016

While I know bats can see, because it's a neat idea (and also the expected result) I'd treat the bats as disorientated and have them crash about.

Bayonet · Feb 11, 2016

"this seemed reasonable and 'out of the box', so I went with it*.

That's essentially the motto of the good DM, in my opinion.

Illithidbix · Feb 11, 2016

I think it was a good call. That player will likely remember it for years.

For consistency's sake, it should however also work on Oath of Vengeance Paladins.

I'm A Banana · Feb 11, 2016

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Bit of an odd one...

Faced with an angry colony of bats, one of my players cast Silence on the basis that their echolocation wouldn't work, and so they'd get confused and fly into one another, the walls, and then the floor.

Not being an expert, this seemed reasonable and 'out of the box', so I went with it*.

Any other interpretations? Does this sound fair to you?

Also, any other similar lateral thinking you guys have come across? Might be fun to share.

*of course, the hunt for non-V spells memorised by the other players was quite fun to watch, and ultimately pretty painful. The bats were helping a vampire, you see.

It's a bit strong. Re-read the bat's stat block:

MM said:
Echolocation. The swarm can't use its blindsight wile deafened.

(basically the same thing appears on the bat stat block, and the giant bat stat-block)

So what happens to a bat in silence? It can't use blindsight, which means if it's dark, it's got exactly the same chance to run into the walls and such as the PC's do (that is, basically, none, typically - though it might be funny to see the PC's stumbling around in darkness and tripping and falling and whatnot). But invisibility now works against 'em.

But, you know, if everyone had fun, it doesn't matter too much if you obeyed the RAW or whatever.

Horwath · Feb 11, 2016

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Also, any other similar lateral thinking you guys have come across? Might be fun to share.

oh. 3.5e was full of it.

you can do many in 5e also.

i.e. in 3.5e cast summon monster/nature ally above enemies. so they drop on them for damage and then attack them.

for castle siege; fly up in the air above. Cast leomunds secure shelter... /laugh...

or cast "gate" spell horizontally above the besieged target to elemental plane of water.

cast shrink item on some morningstar head, plant it in someones food(you can also make it soft as well as small) and when he eats it, just end the spell. Cool way to assassinate.

Mecheon · Feb 11, 2016

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Makes you wonder, if humans are considered generally the dominant species, and everyone else has darkvision pretty much, why Potions of Darkvision (or Goggles of the Dwarven LordsTM) aren't considered a staple like Healing Potions.

Because Eberon is the world where all of those logical advancements have taken place, not FR

Ilbranteloth · Oct 10, 2017

lowkey13 said:
Something I'm going to touch on which hasn't been fully addressed. How do the characters (as opposed to the players) know that the bats are using echolocation, and therefore silence might work (subject to the actual science being discussed in this thread regarding bats' eyesight)?

It wasn't until 1790 that it was determined that bats used hearing to help them navigate, and echolocation wasn't uncovered until the 20th century.

It's something that I'd be curious about. In game terms (if you wanted that), it would probably be a very high nature (intelligence) DC check.

I'd agree with that. On the other hand, if I was trying to be stealthy and avoid waking the bats, it's easier to cast silence on them than to ensure the entire party stays within the confines of the spell.

And if the bats were sleeping, then I don't think the silence would necessarily bother them, at least not the same way casting it on a swarm that is actively flying. I might allow a Perception check on the part of the bats to notice it.

On the other hand, in a world where you can magically create a zone of absolute silence, there's probably a pretty good chance over the years that somebody might notice the effect such a zone has on bats. If a silence spell is cast, bats might very well swarm around it, changing direction as soon as they enter it, making it seem to be a very good barrier against a swarm of bats. The reason might not be obvious, but I think that sages and wizards would note the effect. Whether it would become common knowledge or not probably depends on the scenario.

But if you lived in a village where they harvested mushrooms in a local cave system, they might very well be using a silence spell to protect the workers from the bats.

Ilbranteloth · Oct 10, 2017

The Grassy Gnoll said:
Makes you wonder, if humans are considered generally the dominant species, and everyone else has darkvision pretty much, why Potions of Darkvision (or Goggles of the Dwarven LordsTM) aren't considered a staple like Healing Potions.

The same reasons why night vision goggles aren't a staple in our lives.

Torches, lanterns, candles and lamps are readily available to everybody, and easier and cheaper to produce.
Humans still live much the same way we do - above ground and they tend to sleep at night.
Most people have no regular need to see in the dark.

And the big one for me:
Everybody makes an assumption that a creature that has darkvision won't use additional sources of light.

Consider this: Humans see as well at dusk as creatures with darkvision see in the dark. Yet when our vision is impaired, or in game terms, half as good as normal, we use additional light sources. We don't wait until it's dark, we put on the lights when the light is dim.

Why would creatures that have darkvision settle for half-good vision? In total darkness, both you and your opponent are at a disadvantage. In the underdark, you aren't generally trying to protect yourself from surface dwellers (humans) without darkvision. You're dealing with other creature with darkvision.

Their light would be dimmer than we use (that is, only bright enough for them to benefit), but otherwise their cities and such would be dimly lit in the same way we brightly light ours.

Darkness is actually worse than half-as-good as dim light. In dim light, a creature with darkvision can see to the full extent of their vision just like a human in bright light. Large objects or movement can be seen very far away, much farther away than the 120' you can see in the dark. That can be a disadvantage for you. Suppose you are in a very large cavern, 1,000 feet across. If you have dim light, but only to about 100 feet, then a creature with a bow can still attack you from 400 feet away. So you'll want the dim light to extend at least as far as the range of the longest ranged weapon.