zaratan
First Post
You would spend most of your spell slots in defense, even them you still isn't a tank and you melee damage is lower than a melee class. So, about optimization, isn't the best option.
D&D 5E Best Gish
You would spend most of your spell slots in defense, even them you still isn't a tank and you melee damage is lower than a melee class. So, about optimization, isn't the best option.
famousringo
First Post
At least start fighter so you have good armor and Con saves. Arcane Ward won't be enough to keep those control spells and Investiture up.
Cognomen's Cassowary
First Post
The thing I wouldn't like about starting out fighter is that it would slow down spellcasting (and the armor is actually worse so long as I have a +3 Dex mod or better). I'd have to wait another level for that big bump in power that comes from doubling your spell slots at third level, and I do have the arcane role to fill in the group. If I were to multiclass, I would want to stick with spellcasters, and I wouldn't want to plug more than one level into another class. (I'm going to need my ASIs). Warlock would offer armor of agathys, a few temporary HP from the fiend, and cantrips but no useful saves or proficiencies--and it still slows down spellcasting. Sorcerer, as much as I love it, provides very little for a single-level dip. Shillelagh would be weak with my (probable) 12 Wis, and . . . why else take druid?
That leaves bard and cleric. Both would get me a rapier, which is a good start. Bard would package with it a Dex save, bardic inspiration, and great low-level control spells (with a Cha-based DC, alas). Cleric offers shield proficiency, a nice range of spells including abjurations, and domains. Of these, only light and tempest have good first-level features which suit my purposes. (War would be good, if it played nicely with SCAG cantrips.) Both features would be limited by my lowish Wis, though. Tempest is the one which actually gets me the rapier, and the domain spells seem more interesting. If I took war caster at fifth level, I could have 18 AC (or 20 with shield of faith) and then the shield spell . . . or wrath of the storm for the one bum who still managed to hit me, and advantage on concentration saves.
Finalist #1: bard 1/abjurer X. More control, Dex save, less able to stand in and fight.
Finalist #2: tempest cleric 1/abjurer X. Greater variety of spells, higher AC, less control.
Finalist #3: abjurer X+1. Faster spell progression, less MAD, less versatility.
That leaves bard and cleric. Both would get me a rapier, which is a good start. Bard would package with it a Dex save, bardic inspiration, and great low-level control spells (with a Cha-based DC, alas). Cleric offers shield proficiency, a nice range of spells including abjurations, and domains. Of these, only light and tempest have good first-level features which suit my purposes. (War would be good, if it played nicely with SCAG cantrips.) Both features would be limited by my lowish Wis, though. Tempest is the one which actually gets me the rapier, and the domain spells seem more interesting. If I took war caster at fifth level, I could have 18 AC (or 20 with shield of faith) and then the shield spell . . . or wrath of the storm for the one bum who still managed to hit me, and advantage on concentration saves.
Finalist #1: bard 1/abjurer X. More control, Dex save, less able to stand in and fight.
Finalist #2: tempest cleric 1/abjurer X. Greater variety of spells, higher AC, less control.
Finalist #3: abjurer X+1. Faster spell progression, less MAD, less versatility.
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Straight abjurer is best if you do not intend being a gish. If you are a deep gnome you also get access to a feat that gives you an abjuration cantrips to recharge your ward on demand.
Warlock is suboptimal in general, but if you wish to make a gish abjurer without being a deep gnome, you can abuse the armor of shadows invocation to recharge your ward. It requires a two lvl commitment, but it rewards you with the ward abuse, a great form of armor and another invocation of your choice, probably devil's sight ( there is good synergy with darkness and animate objects since the latter have blindsense, so being able to see in magical darkness is a plus).
Cleric is the least impactful but also more balanced choice, since it gives you access to armor and useful spells only with one lvl dip. Fighter is maybe better for gish types thanks to the constitution saves. For any combination that does not have con saves, resilient con will be required at some point. Probably after warcaster and maxing your int. The second lvl of fighter should also be taken eventually if you follow that route, I guess at lvl two is the most painless option but you can delay it until you feel comfortable.
Bard does not strike me as particularly interesting. Maybe for jack of all trades and the bonus on counterspell and initiative checks? Too weak to worth the opportunity cost. There are better alternatives.
zaratan
First Post
So, as wizard you have amazing spells to control enemies or battlefield or inflict damage, but you will burn your slots with shield and shield of faith only to survive in melee? Bumping your Dex before your Int or delaying that with feats to survive? And your damage isn't even as good as any melee class. Now you don't have the best part of the wizard or the best part of a melee fighter.
Yes, this is a viable build, but I wouldn't call "optimized".
You don't need war caster to use shield, you can drop your weapon cast a spell and get the weapon back with your object interaction.
Yes, this is a viable build, but I wouldn't call "optimized".
You don't need war caster to use shield, you can drop your weapon cast a spell and get the weapon back with your object interaction.
If we're still talking about good general fighter/caster builds, there's this:
Human Variant - Blade-lock 12, BM Fighter 4, Bear Totem Barbarian 4.
Starting stats:
Strength: 15 (16)
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 15 (16)
ASI's/Feats:
(Human) Recommend GWM or maybe War caster if you want to go board and sword (Whatever will match your fighting style)
(4th - BM Fighter lvs for action surge and manoeuvres) (+2 strength
(8th - 4 lvs in Warlock) (+2 Strength)
(13th - you go one more level in Warlock to grab blade pact invocation= second attack and 3rd lv slots, but then go 4 lvs Barbarian (Bear totem) (+2 Charisma)
(16th - another 3 lvs in Warlock gets you the next ASI and 4th lv slots, put in Charisma (+2, now maxed)
(20th - 4 more lvs in warlock gets you 3/short rest 5th level spell slots, 1 6th level 'Mystic arcanum' spell/ long rest and your last ASI (+2 to con)
Lv 20 stats:
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 9
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 20
Now, there are a couple of nice things that blend in well with this combination. Firstly, you only need Strength and Charisma to be your real focus.
The build is helped with an initial use of a feat for a bonus action attack, the best being either GWM or pole-arm master, though war-caster may be an alternative to give you advantage on your concentration checks. Maybe then you focus on being a sword and board war-caster.
The 4 levels in BM fighter could be swapped for levels in paladin if desired, the character then gaining some base healing and disease immunity, spells, channel divinity, smites etc.
The 4 levels in barbarian (bear totem) is primarily beneficial for 2 reasons, the awesome rage benefits and then reckless attack.
The 12 Levels in Fiendish Blade-Lock give you:
-Cha mod+ Warlock lv temp hp on every kill (17, becomes effectively 34 during a rage)
-Second attack at warlock lv 5
-dark ones own luck/short or long rest to use on saves
-Fiendish resistance - For psychic damage resistance! The only damage a bear totem barb is not resistant to
-Lifedrinker invocation at lv 12, for a standard total of +10 damage to each of your attacks (makes action surge devastating, whether you use a maul or a longsword and shield).
The above combination makes for a frightening hard hitting tank with some casting ability too. When raging, each attack will actually do +12 damage (+14 with duelling fighting style).
The biggest weakness of the build is its inability to maintain concentration or cast when raging.
The other option is to go without barbarian levels and instead take your 12 in warlock, 4 in fighter and 4 in paladin. HP will not be as good, but then again if taking just the averages, the difference is only 1/level= 12
You will definitely produce plenty of temp hp as a fiendish blade-lock to make up for that 12 hp.
Human Variant - Blade-lock 12, BM Fighter 4, Bear Totem Barbarian 4.
Starting stats:
Strength: 15 (16)
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 15 (16)
ASI's/Feats:
(Human) Recommend GWM or maybe War caster if you want to go board and sword (Whatever will match your fighting style)
(4th - BM Fighter lvs for action surge and manoeuvres) (+2 strength
(8th - 4 lvs in Warlock) (+2 Strength)
(13th - you go one more level in Warlock to grab blade pact invocation= second attack and 3rd lv slots, but then go 4 lvs Barbarian (Bear totem) (+2 Charisma)
(16th - another 3 lvs in Warlock gets you the next ASI and 4th lv slots, put in Charisma (+2, now maxed)
(20th - 4 more lvs in warlock gets you 3/short rest 5th level spell slots, 1 6th level 'Mystic arcanum' spell/ long rest and your last ASI (+2 to con)
Lv 20 stats:
Strength: 20
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 9
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 20
Now, there are a couple of nice things that blend in well with this combination. Firstly, you only need Strength and Charisma to be your real focus.
The build is helped with an initial use of a feat for a bonus action attack, the best being either GWM or pole-arm master, though war-caster may be an alternative to give you advantage on your concentration checks. Maybe then you focus on being a sword and board war-caster.
The 4 levels in BM fighter could be swapped for levels in paladin if desired, the character then gaining some base healing and disease immunity, spells, channel divinity, smites etc.
The 4 levels in barbarian (bear totem) is primarily beneficial for 2 reasons, the awesome rage benefits and then reckless attack.
The 12 Levels in Fiendish Blade-Lock give you:
-Cha mod+ Warlock lv temp hp on every kill (17, becomes effectively 34 during a rage)
-Second attack at warlock lv 5
-dark ones own luck/short or long rest to use on saves
-Fiendish resistance - For psychic damage resistance! The only damage a bear totem barb is not resistant to
-Lifedrinker invocation at lv 12, for a standard total of +10 damage to each of your attacks (makes action surge devastating, whether you use a maul or a longsword and shield).
The above combination makes for a frightening hard hitting tank with some casting ability too. When raging, each attack will actually do +12 damage (+14 with duelling fighting style).
The biggest weakness of the build is its inability to maintain concentration or cast when raging.
The other option is to go without barbarian levels and instead take your 12 in warlock, 4 in fighter and 4 in paladin. HP will not be as good, but then again if taking just the averages, the difference is only 1/level= 12
You will definitely produce plenty of temp hp as a fiendish blade-lock to make up for that 12 hp.
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Kithas
First Post
It needs to be a spell of level 1 or higter to charge yoer ward...
To answer the question yes. Ive brewed an abjurer gish/tank before and its ok. The real disappointment is how long it takes nhe shield to recharge. You will really only get it once per day. You do still have full slots and good cantrips. Honestly though evocation just works better. Gives you more reliable damage so you can focus more on defensive things. I would agree that 2fgtr to start helps this build a ton. Armor prof shields weapons con saves an hp moost and fighting style is a big deal. Remember that you are wading into melee and your base hit die is a d6, if you dont make sowe hefty defensive investments you will go down before you can do your damage.
You cannot rage in heavy armor IIRC. AC15 is a little low.
famousringo
First Post
That's the thing with Barbilock: You don't really want them to miss.
You're resisting all damage and you have tons of HP from Barbarian and warlock's various temp HP effects, but the piece de resistance is that Armor of Agathys is not a concentration spell and will endure twice as long thanks to the damage resistance, punishing your foes every time they dare strike you.
Kithas
First Post
You can get the invocation for mage armor too, no concentration there either. You are also free to use a shield.
I also feel like Warbarian is the better name mashup
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