D&D 5E Monk/Rogue/Warlock Build questions

faria said:

Or if we add Ranger in there (getting MAD, still assuming 20 DEX though, good luck with that):

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What is causing the builds to be MAD is the Warlock. Rogue is Dex which is a primary stat of most Monks and Ranger is Dex/Wis which are the primary stats of most Monks (Wis is the "casting" stat for Monk Stun).

I talked to my DM a bit. He is letting me start as a variant human (mechanically). He is also ruling that my unarmed strikes will be counting as weapon attacks so this makes a Monk/Ranger/Rogue combination better.

faria said:

#1 Monk 11/Rogue 6/Warlock 3 gets 3 ASIs, 3d6 SA dice, 4 skills with Expertise, Uncanny Dodge.
DPSR@20 (Hex as BA) = 2d6+5+2d6+6d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 59
DPR@20 (FoB as BA) = 1d6+5+1d6+3d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d8+5+1d6 + 1d8+5+1d6 = 60.5

#2 Monk 11/Rogue 5/Warlock 4 same as above, but drop 2 skills with Expertise for an extra ASI, an extra Spell Known, and a Cantrip.
DPSR = 59
DPR = 60.5

#3 Monk 11/Rogue 4/Warlock 5 gets 4 ASIs, 2d6 SA dice, 4 skills with Expertise, no Uncanny Dodge, 3rd level Warlock spells, and another Invocation (can take One With Shadows to basically be a Way of the Shadow Monk while still going Way of the Open Hand). 1 less Sneak Attack die lowers our damage slightly.
DPSR = 52
DPR = 57

#4 Monk 12/Rogue 4/Warlock 4 Cross between #2 and #3 to end up with 5 ASIs! I don't think you need that many, but more feats can't hurt. You're MAD as it is, so a higher CON is a good thing.
DPSR = 52
DPR = 57

Or if we add Ranger in there (getting MAD, still assuming 20 DEX though, good luck with that):

#5 Monk 11/Rogue 3/Warlock 3/Ranger 3 gets only 2 ASIs...but that might be all you need to cap DEX. By RAW and the multiclass spell slot table, you only get 2 level 1 Ranger slots because you're considered multiclassed. The bonus here is Colossus Slayer and the Dueling Fighting style. Still using a Shortsword.
DPSR = 2d6+5+2+2d6+4d6 + 2d6+5+2+2d6+2d8 = 65
DPR = 1d6+5+2+1d6+2d6+1d8 + 1d6+5+2+1d6 + 1d8+5+1d6 + 1d8+5+1d6 = 65.5

Or if you insist that 6 Ki points (and therefore 6 Flurry of Blows) per short rest is enough:

#6 Monk 6/Rogue 7/Warlock 3/Ranger 4 has 3 ASIs, but puts out the highest numbers (as long as your Ki lasts). 3 ASIs is the minimum IMO, because you probably need 2 for DEX boosts and a 3rd for War Caster (important for maintaining concentration on Hex). Took Ranger to 4 instead of Rogue to 8, because it gives you an extra spell slot (which oddly enough, Warlock 4 won't give you).
DPSR: 2d6+5+2+2d6+8d6 + 2d6+5+2+2d6+2d8 = 79
DPR: 1d6+5+2+1d6+4d6+1d8 + 1d6+5+2+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 70.5

#7 Monk 6/Rogue 6/Warlock 4/Ranger 4 for the same as above, but drop 1 Sneak Attack die for an extra ASI. A fair trade. CON or Resilient CON would be nice.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2+2d6+6d6 + 2d6+5+2+2d6+2d8 = 72
DPR: 1d6+5+2+1d6+3d6+1d8 + 1d6+5+2+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 67

#8 Monk 8/Rogue 6/Warlock 3/Ranger 3 is the same as above, but you drop 1 ASI and a Ranger spell slot for 2 more Ki. As stupid as this sounds, this might be the best compromise. You still have 3 ASIs to cap DEX and grab a feat like War Caster for maintaining Hex.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2+2d6+6d6 + 2d6+5+2+2d6+2d8 = 72
DPR: 1d6+5+2+1d6+3d6+1d8 + 1d6+5+2+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 67

tl;dr Build DoT, not burst. Throwing Ranger 3 in boosts damage a bit. 6 Monk > 11 Monk, but you have to Short Rest as much as possible. 8 Monk is a possible compromise. Builds #6, 7, and 8 are best, depending on how many Short Rests your group takes as well as how many ASIs you want/need.

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Thank you for putting these numbers together for me. This is fantastic. I wasn't really building for burst damage so you and I are in agreement. I am wondering where the "2d6+2d8" is coming from in Build 6 (and a few others).

On a surprise round, Hex's 1d6 is doubled to 2d6 and Colossus Slayer's 1d8 is doubled to 2d8. Notice that Hex kicks in on every attack but Colossus Slayer (and Sneak Attack for that matter) only occur once per turn. In the case of the surprise round, the first attack triggers Sneak Attack but you have to wait until the Extra Attack for Colossus Slayer to kick in (because after the first attack, it's no longer at full HP).

Unfortunately, this build doesn't reach minimum potential until level 10: Monk 5/Rogue 1/Warlock 1/Hunter 3. Or level 12 if you want Assassinate, or level 12 if you want a Sprite familiar to always trigger Sneak Attack, or level 14 if you want both of these... And even at 14, you only have 2 Sneak Attack Dice and 5 Ki... This build isn't realistic.

If we drop Ranger (Colossus Slayer and Dueling style aren't worth 3 levels IMO), then we can reach minimum potential at level 7: Monk 5/Rogue 1/Warlock 1. Or even as early as level 4 with Monk 2/Rogue 1/Warlock 1, but you won't have Extra Attack yet. Still, this is a level that most players can realistically reach and to see this build in action.

If we decide to build around Monk 6 or 8 without Ranger, this opens up a few more builds. Let's explore them:

#9 Monk 6/Rogue 11/Warlock 3 is the highest numbers I can see. Rogue sneaks another ASI in at level 10, giving us 4 ASIs and a whopping 6 Sneak Attack Dice! We also get Reliable Talent, making this a very nice out-of-combat build as well. Let's crunch the numbers.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+12d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 80
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6+6d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 69

#10 Monk 6/Rogue 10/Warlock 4 drops a Sneak Attack die for a 5th ASI. Again, a fair trade, but 5 ASIs is a lot. Not a big drop in damage though.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+10d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 73
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6+5d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 65.5

#11 Monk 6/Rogue 12/Warlock 2. Another way to get the 5th ASI is to trade your pet familiar (and thus Sneak Attacks after the surprise round) and 2nd level slots. I genuinely don't like this idea (familiars are fun...), but I'm curious to see what happens to the damage.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+12d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 80
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 48. Awful.

Burning through Ki with this character idea makes Monk 8 more appealing than Monk 6 IMO:

#12 Monk 8/Rogue 9/Warlock 3. Is a 5th ASI worth 2 more Ki? Damage is the same, and you still have 4 ASIs, so I think so.
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+10d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 73
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6+5d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 65.5

#13 Monk 8/Rogue 8/Warlock 4 for 5 ASIs again. It might be overkill, but all you give up for it is 1 Sneak Attack die and Infiltration Expertise (I've never seen that feature come up in any of my games).
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+8d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 66
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6+4d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 62

#14 Monk 8/Rogue 7/Warlock 5 gives up 1 ASI (still have 4 though) to gain the One With Shadows Invocation (or whichever you want) and more spells, including 3rd level slots!
DPSR: 2d6+5+2d6+8d6 + 2d6+5+2d6 = 66
DPR: 1d6+5+1d6+4d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 + 1d6+5+1d6 = 62

The first thing that's evident is that the burst numbers are higher because we can take more levels of Rogue than before. But again, we want to focus on consistent DoT because the burst here isn't significantly higher (straight Rogues would do so much more burst, especially level 17 Assassins). Build #14 is my favorite build, with #9 pretty close behind. On paper, #9 is much better (an extra ASI, Reliable Talent, and 2 extra Sneak Attack dice), but in reality, this build is so heavily dependent on Flurry of Blows to be good. Every non-surprise round that you can't FoB, you're losing 24 DPR. That's 35-39% of your damage!!! You're gonna burn through that Ki and start sucking (doing 45 DPR instead of 69 DPR) if you can't get a short rest in.

It depends on your group I guess. My group doesn't rest after every single fight. I'd say, on average, my group gets in 2 fights at 5 rounds of combat each between short rests. That's 2 surprise rounds + 8 non-surprise rounds. You only need Ki for non-surprise rounds, so 8 Ki average is what I need in my current group. YMMV

No matter which build you decide to go with, they should all start the same:

1. Monk 1 - need Ki...
2. Monk 2 - Ki!!! Flurry of Blows!!!
3. Warlock 1 - Hex!

Minimum requirements for Hex+Flurry of Blows combo met. I wouldn't even go Rogue for a while, because things like Extra Attack and a 2nd slot for Hex are more important.

4. Monk 3 - more Ki = more FoB
5. Monk 4 - more Ki = more FoB, ASI
6. Monk 5 - more Ki = more FoB, Extra Attack
7. Warlock 2 - 1 more spell slot per short rest for a 2nd Hex, Invocations
8. Rogue 1 - Sneak Attack, Expertise

As much as I want to go more into Rogue, grabbing a Familiar and another Ki will do more for us.

9. Warlock 3 - Sprite familiar for constant Sneak Attacks
10. Monk 6 - more Ki = more FoB, monk feature
11. Rogue 2 - Cunning action...a "meh" level
12. Rogue 3 - Assassinate!

At 12, you reach the mechanical peak of the build. You've only gotten 1 ASI this entire time, but you could gain 3 ASIs in the next 4 levels if you really need them. Definitely cap DEX ASAP and then take War Caster for maintaining concentration on Hex. If you're comfortable with 6 Ki, then take Rogue up from here. If you want a few more Ki, take Monk to 8 first. I recommend at least 7 levels of Rogue, no matter what build you go with. I think Warlock is the least priority unless you really wanna rush that ASI from Warlock 4.

faria said:

No matter which build you decide to go with, they should all start the same:

1. Monk 1 - need Ki...
2. Monk 2 - Ki!!! Flurry of Blows!!!
3. Warlock 1 - Hex!

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If you are only playing a campaign up to the early mid levels then yes. Monks can be damage competitive and you could build them that way. In a longer campaign or in a group with other damage dealers, you want to build Monk to level 6.

* Monk 2 Flurry of Blows
* Monk 3 - Very cool path ability
* Monk 4 ASI
* Monk 5 2 attacks and Stun
* Monk 6 - Second cool path ability

Stun is the cornerstone ability of the Monk class; while you have Ki left it allows you to change the outcome of a battle by locking down the big bad guy. I can't stress enough how foundational to the class Stun is; you will see your play style change immediately after you get this ability. It is also why you might want to consider raising Wisdom at level 4 which is why you might want to consider those Ranger spells over Warlock.

What Warlock invocations would you choose? I'm not sure that going 5 levels into Warlock will be worth it. I am about 80% sure I am sticking with Shadow Monk.

We just leveled up to Level 4. I am currently at Monk 2/Warlock 1/Rogue 1.

DPR (after 1st round): 1d6+3+1d6+1d6+1d4 + 1d6+3+1d6+1d4 + 1d6+3+1d6+1d4 = 30.5

The 1d4 is from a rare magic item grants me extra 1d4 damage on unarmed attacks. It also let's me use pack tactics (advantage) with a few other party members. Pretty cool item. As far as leveling, I will be going to Monk 6, then Warlock 3, then Rogue the rest of the way. We are taking a short rest after almost every fight so I'm not sure that Monk 8 would be necessary. If things change then I can always take those extra levels or take an extra level in Warlock for another ASI/feat. I ended up going variant human with the mobile feat.

The inv. To see in magical darkness plus shadow monks casting darkness works pretty nicely. The other one Id say between the pushing eblast or a utility one.