Pathfinder 1E D & D and/or Pathfinder, the effects of selective spell exclusions

Eman Resu · Mar 1, 2016

I know there exists a list of prestige classes, feats & spells that are commonly banned by DMs. Most often the reasoning for such exclusions, "its too powerful" "its broken". Some examples are Planar Shepherd, incantatrix, wish (and like spells).

I am interested in removing the Teleport Spell and to a lesser degree "gimping" plane travel. I would like for the gaming world Im creating to be void of these, forcing conventional travel by all but the gods.
I would like to see how you think this would effect society? Think about it, a world where Wizards cant just pull out there get out of jail free cards" thusly avoiding sticky situations.

Gandalf had to ride a horse, ok sometimes a giant eagle, he did not have teleport, but if he did, the movie(s) would of never happened. Grab Hobbit, teleport, throw ring, 2 minute movie, roll the credits its all over.

How do you envision the effects/affects of this?

I foresee wizard towers with a lot of defenses, more defenses, lots of man power, more conventional in nature. Oh sure, they can turn inviso, fly, maybe both, but the easy escape of plane travel or teleport are to have never existed being reserved for only the gods. High level wizards would be more easily contained, controlled and excluded. A wizard would make a valuable ally but a horrible enemy, as is the case already. But now they cant come and go as they please. A king cant just "allow" them to make and sell to anybody with deep purse. Heaven forbid 1 of these magics are made to slay the king himself. An eye must be kept over them. And protection, yes, you cant have a prize like this be kidnapped or killed. So I see wizards being locked away in the kings tower, only being allowed to make things for the king. "for their own protection"

I think this will add emphasis to other classes abilities, other spells...and over all paranoia. The world is unsafe and now the high level spell casters wont be able to avoid situations with a snap of the fingers.

Thoughts?

Eman

Ezequielramone · Mar 2, 2016

I think that is excellent. People tend to think that the books are the holy Bible but it is only a toolbox.
You decide which things show up in your world. Maybe gnomes don't exist, maybe only dwarf can use magic. Maybe there are not goods in your world, so no clerics/paladins.
Thinking how is this going to impact the world, as you do, is the way, because that will set the tone of the setting. I'll ban some divination like speak to dead or contact a deity.

As long as you understand the consequences and you're OK you can do any change/exclusion.
With this particular ban, wizards will be more protected in their towers, even if they participate in politics, they will be less exposed. They will be more like nobles, like riding a horse but with his personal militia.
For me, changing the status quo most player assume is a great idea for a setting, thinking in dark Sun (no goods) for example

There is a section, I believe in the gamemaatery guide that talks about dealing with some spells, including teleport. I'm working right now. But I'll check my books at home.

Eman Resu · Mar 2, 2016

what lead me down this path of decision making was many a conversation involving spellcasters. Of course the higher level spells can turn a spellcaster into a quasi minor diety, if not for awhile. But one spell in particular was mentioned with the IF?THAN?THEN arguments, and that spell was teleport, or like "get out of jail free card spell".

This is how it would go down

Spellcaster (Wizo)
Fighter (Bub)

Bub protects Wizo 90% of his young career, Wizo popped out a spell here in there to take care of the other 10%. This became 75/25
until level 5. At 5th level Wizo had 3rd level spells and would just ruin enemies 50/50 chance, oh he could only do this a couple of times a day, if need be, but Bubs services, although loyal and good, started to cheapen. This soon became 25/75 as Wizos magic would influence or out right destroy most opposition most of the time, good ole Bub would just clean up the left overs maybe a couple of mooks. By 10 level Bubs player was feeling the pinch, he was now the bodyguard to a superior, he was getting board. Wizos player was just laughing, weeeee the world great, life is beautiful. Bub would remind him of the old days "remember the time when I saved you" etc etc

Bubs player would say "yah well maybe next time when you got a Owl Bear on you I wont cut em down"
Wizos response was...."I will just teleport away" or any of the like "get out of jail free cards" could be dropped here

Oh sure wizo can say this debuff or that buff spell or save or suck etc etc...but when "fit hits the shan" you better believe there is a couple of good ole go to spells every spellslinger has and teleport is right at the top of the list!

By its removal the change in society is tremendous. If you were a mage, maker of magicals, and you set up shop at the cross junction between to major towns. Your business would be a boomin! And if anybody ever got a little pushy you got spells for that, and when it came time to get out.......well we all know what spell your going to "get out" with. If that is removed, a cheap n easy escape aint possible. NOOOOOOOWWW do you still make that decision to set up shop at the crossroads junction? Would be bad guys know you cant get away, all they need do is have somebody that can see inviso or see that rat is really the wizard.

Eman Resu · Mar 3, 2016

long didnt work so here is short n sweet version

if you were to remove from existence spells that "move you" astral travel, teleport etc and gimp D Door and like spells
How would this effect your campaign settings?

Mortals never had these spells VS all of a sudden these spells no longer work?

Koloth · Mar 4, 2016

I have often wondered why so many settings that have easy to do magic travel still feature standard large stone walls, castles and such. Why spend large amounts of time and money building something that wizards can cheaply render mostly useless?
Task: Kidnap Prince(ss) from heavily guarded traditional castle.
Solution: One wizard with two teleports and appropriate level of sleep/charm spell.
After son/daughter is taken, Royal parents arguing "Now why did we build this damn castle and pay these overpriced guards? "

Alternative - keep teleport but allow only between points actually visited by the wizard in question. Now the above task also includes how to get the wizard into the castle and further, into the royal brat's room so the wizard can now take the kid using teleport.

Maybe add material components that are hard to get. Distilled blood from a mature dragon heart or some such. Now the wizard will be somewhat more reluctant to rely on the teleport as the first escape option.

Ezequielramone · Mar 5, 2016

Koloth said:
I have often wondered why so many settings that have easy to do magic travel still feature standard large stone walls, castles and such. Why spend large amounts of time and money building something that wizards can cheaply render mostly useless?

I think the same way as you. Tha is why wizards are really rare in my games.

Eman Resu · Mar 7, 2016

After discussions of this many players DMs agreed...most campaigns, if not all, have a old guy making magicals at your request in most towns. This is a problem on several levels

#1) why would a ruler allow somebody to make and sell items to his enemies...isnt this treason?
#2) the most valuable items are magicked...the removal of teleport and like "movement spells" makes wizards very unsafe
#3) How are sorcerers, an untrained class, able to know how to do anything without being trained???

Starfox · Mar 16, 2016

Removing teleport from the game is likely to affect most fantasy worlds very little, as very few fantasy worlds actually take teleport into serious consideration. Thus the sum of the above discussion, which I feel is basically "teleport busts my world". So, if you feel like that, by all means remove it.

The rationale that lets teleport work is if you are less simulationist and more fairytale about it. In am magical mystery world, magics like teleport obey strange rules, and if a mage abuses its power, fate comes and bites him in the toe. Abducting the prince is sure to bring a heroine to the rescue.

The same is true of sorcerers. In a fairytale world, a demon, fairy godmother, or "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords" can be the basis of power. Magic is fantasy, not engineering.

But it is the world WITH teleport that needs excuses, not the world without. So if you don't want to make excuses, by all means eliminate the teleport.

Eman Resu · Mar 16, 2016

I have removed long distance communication, teleport, plane travel is severly gimped, all long range magics. Thought being to have a reason for a messenger, a boat, a horse, guardsmen and lots of them on your caravan etc etc

Celebrim · Mar 16, 2016

Removing teleport from most game worlds will make them more coherent rather than less by making them more like their source material.

By all means if that is what you want, do so.

In my game, teleport is still in, but it has vastly reduced range in most cases (normally 1 mile/per caster level unless you are on a ley line and know how to use one) and can be blocked partially or completely by a variety of mundane or inexpensive magical precautions. In essence, you build a castle as a physical enclosure for your magical protections.

Not that there are very many 9th level Wizards in the world anyway. Your average nation of a half-million citizens might have one or two.

Planar travel is conversely easier, albeit wandering off into the spirit world or visiting fairy or is not something I'd normally recommend. But any reasonably well educated person could in fact do so if they wanted to, and a great many important persons of course can do so. It wouldn't at all be unusual for example for a noble family who had fairy ancestry, to maintain in secret the lore of planes walking and to commune somewhat regularly with their relatives. Of course, this is a good way for a family member to occasionally pull a 'Rip Van Winkle' sort of thing and find that he stayed 'overnight' and returned twenty years later, or to attract some malevolent spirit that follows you home. But just because some tramp takes out a knife and cuts a door in the air in my game, doesn't mean he's necessarily a high level wizard. Nor is it necessarily true that getting into a castle through its spirit world version is a lot easier than getting into the template on the material plane, unless it is a very new castle and has had no time to create a spiritual identity. If thrown into a dungeon, turning ethereal doesn't necessarily mean you can just walk through the walls. First, because everything but the door would exist copied into the spirit realm, and the door or room itself - if this is a very old dungeon - is almost certainly become a spirit you'd have to overcome to pass. Not to mention the spirit of anyone that died or suffered in the room. So in short, I can keep planar travel in my game because it doesn't work anything like the short cut of stock D&D.