D&D 5E Let's talk power words!

Hiya!

Power Words are fine in my game. Mind you , I haven't seen a Power Word used in any of my campaigns (be they 1e through 5e), in about two decades. In my games, gaining levels is NOT a "foregone conclusion"...it takes, skill, luck and perseverance to get to high level in any of my campaigns.

But, I've never seen Power Word spells as being primarily used for "big battles". When I was playing my highest level PC I've ever had (back in around '89 or '90; 1e AD&D), Denakhan (20th level Elven Magic-User) would use PW:Kill on foes he knew weren't bags-o'-HP, but were VERY dangerous to MU's (remember, MU's in 1e used d4hp and HD stopped at around 9th level...I think MU's at 10th or 11th). Things that were sort of the monster equivalent of "glass canon's". Intellect Devourer, Mind Flayer, other Magic-Users, Beholders, etc. Monsters that could SERIOUSLY wreck an Arch-Mages day. That's when I'd yell out a Power Word Kill/Stun.

IMHO, if a player of a 20th level Wizard tries to use Power Word Kill on the first or second round of fighting a dragon, well, that player is pretty bad at playing a Wizard. I'm not trying to disparage "modern players", but it has been my experience that levels nowadays are handed out like candy at Halloween. Players (and DM's) "expect" to get to 20th level in the course of eight to 10 months. They don't have to really try. They don't need to develop their "player levels".

That said, when I read up on the Power Word spells for 5e I was...confused. I was confused because I instantly saw a potential problem; if Monster HP have gone way up...why haven't the effects of spells? Especially high level ones (6th or higher). I mean, I assumed that the developers SHOULD have seen this the second they started typing out the description of Power Word Kill, for example. So, IF any PC in any of my games even starts to approach being able to cast high level spells, I'll probably have to house-rule something; probably in crease damage/potential by 50% or so when dealing with spells that rely/focus on a targets HP. But that day is probably a long way off...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Gadget said:

These are problems with high level D&D in general, form the beginning. In this context, Disintegrate and many other spells serve the same purpose. It is a problem to be handled mainly through world building and story, not necessarily rules, unless you want to play a low magic option ala Adventures in Middle-earth or some such. Maybe there are only a few number of people who have the talent ability & gumption to obtain a high level, etc. Only a few people in the church hierarchy can actually cast spells.

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Agreed, which is why I've been tweaking rules like these for decades. The campaign could be considered a weird blend of Middle Earth and the published Forgotten Realms (it's set in the Realms). But in part because my impression of the Realms was set by Greenwood's Dragon articles and the original campaign set, where things were scaled down quite a bit. Even when you get to his Volo's Guides, things are magical and interesting, but largely within reason.

Rituals in my campaign (which include things like resurrection) are a separate type of magic from regular spellcasting. It's mostly relegated to temple priests, rather than adventuring clerics, and not all temple will have the ability. Divine Rituals are a type of faith magic, based on the size of the congregation (not present, just total), and all rituals in my campaign are generally cast using multiple spellcasters. There are risks, both short term and long term (the possibility of permanent Constitution or Strength loss), so even those temples that can resurrect somebody do so only when necessary. That usually means that they see some purpose that will benefit their deity to do so. That can be payment, but it's going to be a lot. And I still have a resurrection survival percentage, although the chance of success is lower than AD&D. So while it's a mix of setting and rules, I prefer the rules to support the setting as much as possible.

Suffice to say, the PCs don't rely on resurrection much.

Other high level stuff we generally avoid because PCs rarely reach 10th level, much less 17th in the campaign. We prefer slower advancement within the context of the passage of time in the campaign. We also have some fairly severe level limits based on ability scores (and maximum ability scores too). So for the most part, the maximum PCs can reach without magical assistance is 13th level. Having said that, NPCs follow the same basic rules. So while there are some high level wizards, most of them tend to be something other than just human. Liches are particularly common, and considering most of them in our campaign have been around for thousands of years and primarily studying and collecting magic, I'd expect them to be of a significantly higher level than the PCs.

Most of the time, the "BBEG" is more along the lines of a Bond villain, or mob boss. Soft and squishy when they don't have their organization and other defenses to protect them. Because they are, after all, only human. Liches, beholders, dragons, demons, and the like, however, are truly terrifying for the PCs, in part because they are significantly higher level than them. In those cases, a frontal assault is usually suicide. Spells, special abilities, and magic items definitely play their part, but they really have to come up with creative and well thought out plans to defeat them. Success more often than not equals survival, rather than defeating the BBEG, and requires multiple attempts.

Gadget said:

The opposite of what? balanced?

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Sure, we are talking D&D, and it can certainly deliver for DM's and Players who actively dislike balance. ;P

You seem to be saying that the only options are: have the spell not be to particularly useful for its level, or instantly pawn almost any foe. There are other ways.

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There is the option of dropping the spell, entirely, and including some other, perhaps less classic, 9th level spell in it's place. It was a spell that was in no small part about avoiding certain very persistent limitations on spell casting - M & S components, casting in melee, and, particularly, longer casting times the higher level the spell, with those limitations virtually gone for all spells to begin with, it may simply not have had a place in this edition.

If I remember right, the only high CR monster that PWK can kill is demilich.

The thing which can suck out your soul but only has 80 hp.

iserith said:

You make a lot of assumptions here about what's going on in that fight. Maybe the party isn't managing fine and, for some reason, PWK is the best choice right now even if it isn't always so. Maybe the other 9th-level spells you have prepared aren't a good fit in this moment. Maybe you're in the last fight of the day and you don't care if you blow the slot on PWK. Maybe you just want to say you finished off a dragon by speaking but a single word to it. Who knows?

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If your criteria are so loose anything goes, then, well, anything goes.

No reason even discussing under those premises.

CapnZapp said:

If your criteria are so loose anything goes, then, well, anything goes.

No reason even discussing under those premises.

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My experience with D&D is that what's good in one situation isn't so great in another and vice versa. So I don't think it's all that great to unilaterally say this or that is terrible. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. If you'd prefer to just say it sucks in all situations and is a trap choice, that's your right I suppose. I'd rather say when it's good and when it's not as good.

iserith said:

My experience with D&D is that what's good in one situation isn't so great in another and vice versa. So I don't think it's all that great to unilaterally say this or that is terrible. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. If you'd prefer to just say it sucks in all situations and is a trap choice, that's your right I suppose. I'd rather say when it's good and when it's not as good.

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I'm looking at this from a game design perspective. I ideally want WotC to grade all options, then weed out the red and brown ones. Since this increases options in practical play (as opposed to options on paper only) it makes the game better for everybody.

When something is red, generally terrible, underpowered, weak compared to the alternatives it's okay to say so. You should try it sometime.

In this case, we are in agreement the spell probably shouldn't be changed (even if we disagree about its rating as a player choice).

As I have said a million times by now, the spell does have a niche. That niche is CR 10-15 enemy casters using it against the player characters.

Why those boundaries? Because CR 10 is probably the lowest challenge where the adventurers have enough resources to ressurrect their fallen comrade (since it's plausible the party is only level 5).

As a "finisher" it's definitely not worth a level 9 slot, though. You don't waste your best slot on merely putting down someone who's already damaged. And CR 15 is probably the highest challenge where the spell can actually take someone out without waiting for it to become hurt first, considering that around levels 10-15 most party members will sport a hundred hp.

CapnZapp said:

I'm looking at this from a game design perspective. I ideally want WotC to grade all options, then weed out the red and brown ones. Since this increases options in practical play (as opposed to options on paper only) it makes the game better for everybody.

When something is red, generally terrible, underpowered, weak compared to the alternatives it's okay to say so. You should try it sometime.

In this case, we are in agreement the spell probably shouldn't be changed (even if we disagree about its rating as a player choice).

As I have said a million times by now, the spell does have a niche. That niche is CR 10-15 enemy casters using it against the player characters.

Why those boundaries? Because CR 10 is probably the lowest challenge where the adventurers have enough resources to ressurrect their fallen comrade (since it's plausible the party is only level 5).

As a "finisher" it's definitely not worth a level 9 slot, though. You don't waste your best slot on merely putting down someone who's already damaged. And CR 15 is probably the highest challenge where the spell can actually take someone out without waiting for it to become hurt first, considering that around levels 10-15 most party members will sport a hundred hp.

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I still think you're making a lot of assumptions. The usefulness of this spell is going to depend on the game and on the situation. The same can be said for lots of spells and other game options. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

CapnZapp said:

I'm looking at this from a game design perspective. I ideally want WotC to grade all options, then weed out the red and brown ones. Since this increases options in practical play (as opposed to options on paper only) it makes the game better for everybody.

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That's just crazy talk - and the result would be in no way anything like D&D.

CapnZapp said:

You don't waste your best slot on merely putting down someone who's already damaged.

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Why don't you?