Batman v Superman (open spoiler thread)

This is the spoiler thread. Don't read it if you haven't seen the film. There be no sblocks here!

I very much enjoyed the film. Batfleck was better than I could have imagined (I now can't wait for a solo Batman film!) and, hey, it wasn't all set at night like the trailers make it look!

Not much of the film is actually BvS. A brief 30-second encounter about half way through and a longer 5-10 minute fight later where Bats totally wipes the floor with Supes. He wins, outright. (In fact, does Supes win a single fight in the whole film?) He plans the entire encounter.

Glad they dealt with Bats' origin story quickly in the opening credits. Took a minute or two, and then done. Has to be there, because not everybody is 40. For some kids this new DCEU is their first introduction.

Lois was a bit weak. She had to be rescued repeatedly. Did she do anything in the movie, other than get rescued over and over again?

Wonder Woman. Awesome. Love the photo from 1918 with Chris Pine as Steve Trevor etc. Looking forward to that film. Not so sure the guitar intro for her was quite right.

Supes gets nuked! And does the whole emaciated thing like when he got nuked in TDKR graphic novel.

It it really is DKR plus Death of Superman. The former was great. The latter is where the film loses it a bit, I think. The whole Doomsday fight was a confusing mess of explosions and heat vision and glowing things. Still, I did NOT expect Superman to die (even though I know he did in the comic).

Over all, a solid thumbs up. I love the Marvel films (well, some of them - AoU was pretty bad!) but I love that this is a whole different take. If Marvel is cartoons, this is Mythology. It's definitely less kid-friendly than the Marvel stuff, but that's OK.

Saw it.
It was terrible.
There was so much messiness. So much that just appeared and didn't go anywhere. The pacing was erratic. It was just constant drama with no break or release of tension. No levity. It was exhausting. Oppressive. The definition of grimdark.


I think the appearance of Jimmy Olsen at the beginning with Lane is probably a really good summary of how this movie views the source material. Yes, that was Jimmy Olsen.
And you can just imagine what that scene will be like in the R-rated director's cut DVD.


Amy Adams was wasted as Lois Lane. She does nothing in this film of note beyond being rescued and have an emotional scene in a bath for no good reason. And she throws away the Kryptonite spear in possibly the least secure way imaginable. "This small hole two meters away from the fight is the perfect place to dispose of this radioactive weapon. Seems totally secure." And then, of course, she somehow magically realizes she needs it again.
Funny how this movie has Martha Kent, Wonder Woman, Mercy Graves (killed pretty much off camera by Lex for... reasons), Senator Finch, and Lois freakin' Lane and still manages to fail the Bechdel Test.

The manic Jesse Eisenberg just didn't work. He was more Joker than mad industrial genius.
Had they had him stop for a second and show Luthor was playing up the insanity to throw people off and make them underestimate him, that would have worked. A little bit like the Doctor, who plays the madman as a distraction, but grows serious when alone. But without that display of rationality, the sign than it was all part of the plan, Luthor was just a poor Joker. Who was, of course, thrown in jail for no good reason (Lane's word against his word and the best paid lawyers in the world). And then they shaved his head... why?
His motives for wanting Superman dead are a little weak. His father beat him, now he hates people with power? But at least we got a half-assed reason there, unlike with Batman. I imagine Darkseid (as foreshadowed by the actually cool Flash induced vision) was pulling some strings, but that just makes Luthor the flunkie.

Luthor's plan also made no sense.
He hired goons with untracable weapons (special bullets... why??) to kill people in the desert so people would blame Superman. Because, of course, when a whole bunch of people get shot and Superman was there he expects everyone to react with "Gee, Superman must have been involved, since he'd totally shoot people."
He made a big deal about trying to get permission to ship the Kryptonite in from overseas, but he was already smuggling it over. So... why?
And then he turned Zod into a monster... why? He had no reason to know that was possible. And no reason to believe monster Zod would kill Superman, let alone that monster Zod not rip apart Luthor followed by the entire world. What was his end game there?

The Africa attack prompts the whole Senate hearings and the actually rather interesting questions of "should Superman save people worldwide without permission?" That's... that's actually a pretty good question and a realistic Superman movie really did need to ask that. It should go into the ramifications of Superman's actions and the effects his presence has worldwide. The unintended consequences of a Superman breaking international laws. But the movie just gives this pretty huge topic a casual glance and then moves on.
Of course, the movie just asks the questions and just drops the whole issue. Movie ends and everyone just loves Superman. Despite the fact the last people really saw of him, he was flying into a giant crashed spaceship in Metropolis minutes before a giant monster flew out. Everyone was blaming him for a shooting and a bombing, why not an alien monster?
That's a whole lot of convoluted plans when Luthor has a crap tonne of Kyptonite, which Superman isn't aware of yet and doesn't know will harm him. He could have filled the bomb wheelchair with green K shrapnel and reduced Superman to pulp.


The movie follows the standard sequel formula of "hero questions if they should be a hero after deciding to be a hero in the first movie." Like Spiderman II, The Dark Knight, Superman II, etc. But Superman quits for 30 seconds. Superman has the standard Michael Bay character arc, where the protagonist starts of thinking they're awesome, doubts themselves, and then comes full circle to thinking they're awesome again. There's no growth.

Batman's plan isn't much better than Luthor's. He spends the first half of the movie trying to track down the ship Luthor is using to bring in Kryptonite and then steal it off a truck. But then he just breaks into LexCorp and steals it. So that whole half of the movie could have been condensed into the (non)scene where Batman steals the Kryptonite. Add small MacGuffin explanation for how Batman knows Luthor has Kryptonite (also explaining how Wayne knows the K exists and what it does) and start there. Dump a lot of the extraneous Senate stuff. Bam! The movie is a svelte and tight 90-minutes.

And there are just sooooo many reasons given for why Batman wants to fight Superman. Too many. It was almost cluttered. Understated is that he received notes from an amputee (Wallace Keefe) suggesting Wayne let his "family" die. Which were eventually revealed were sent by Lex. This mean:
a) Luthor had been intercepting Keefe's mail for a year in the hopes he'd get angry enough to publicly blame Superman (and not Wayne for not providing any compensation)
b) Luthor knows Wayne is Batman since the mail was directed at him.

There was also the Jason Todd costume that got a lot of traction in the trailers. But that was pretty much its only scene. Yup, the big potential motivation that Batman lost a foster son also didn't play in. Just some background decoration. You can add that to the unexplored backstory, like what happened to the Wayne manor.

Batman also flips from thinking of Superman from an enemy to a friend really fast. It really comes down to "You mom was named Martha too? Dude, let's be besties!" So much so that Batman decides to devote the rest of his life to living like how Superman lived, despite having been convinced Superman was going to kill everyone on the planet a couple days earlier.

And how many people does Batman brutally murder in this film? Ten? Twenty?

The secret to being Batman: used tires!

The scene where Wonder Woman looks at the footage of other metahumans really feels out of place in the action. It breaks the plot and adds nothing to this movies. And then she's getting on a plane, seemingly minutes later. This feels like a scene the wanted earlier but didn't fit. Or a scene that should have been a stinger after the credits.
Also darn convenient how Luthor identified Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg by their logos despite them not being heroes yet.

One thing that really surprised me - we have a monster, and a monster-killing spear. Who should use it? The Bronze Age War Goddess holding a sword right now, or the dude who gets weak as a kitten by being within ten feet of the thing?

I mean, as soon as Batman revealed that he'd forged a Kryptonite spear, I immediately had the flash-forward in my head to Wonder Woman hurling it like Brad-Pitt-as-Achilles-in-Troy, and it was gonna be awesome.

[video=youtube;v208yBT8NmQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v208yBT8NmQ[/video]

-Hyp.

I think the film will make lots of money. There is lots of actions and the CGI doesn't show too much. Is it good? I'm not sure. There are good and great moments, but the bad really pulls it down.

The worse is religious Luthor and is stooooopid plot. Luthor as a crazy Darkseid religious zealot? Nope. Doesn't work. It doesn't fit the comic book character, not to mention that his dialogue and interpretation are weak. His plot to get B fight S was ridiculus too. Major plot hole warning, why didn't Lois just whisper to Sups: "Sups, Lex Luthor used me to get you to strike in another country. He must know your secret identity." Sups can literally hear her half a world away, but she can't whisper info to him when he is 100 meters away? And he can't hear his mom being kidnap half a country away? His super hearing only works on the one he really loves? Meaning Lois and Bruce when he talks to Alfred.

Sups death lacks drama. Was it really necessary aside from respecting the canon when it comes to him fighting Dommsday? We know he is going to come back to life. And probably in a cheesy last minute way against Darkseid. Unless Batman's dream sequence with the parademons was a climpse in the next Justice League film. Maybe Sups does join Darkseid. The time travelling Flash that talks to Bruce seems to think so.

Random thoughts:

Batman has a off switch and its his mom's name?

How does Batman know where Martha is? Was Barbara Gordon has Oracle suppose to help him?

The kryptonite spear was a nice wink at the spear of Longinus.

Wonder Woman shows promise, but I hope the film's scenario and dialogues are better. The rope was cool.

Lots of stuff that might fill plot holes were left out, so the DVD version might be better.

Cavill can't act. He can only make faces.

The rest of the leagues cameos felt like trailers.

goldomark said:

The worse is religious Luthor and is stooooopid plot. Luthor as a crazy Darkseid religious zealot? Nope. Doesn't work. It doesn't fit the comic book character, not to mention that his dialogue and interpretation are weak.

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While I agree he's the weakest of the main leads, I'm fine with the concept. There's no one Lex, any more than there's one Bats or Supes. The comics have had mad scientist Luthor, industrialist Luthor, politician Luthor, gangster Luthor, playboy Luthor. TV and movies have had different Luthors, too - buffoon Luthor, high school Luthor, "criminal mastermind" Luthor, etc. Harbinger Luthor isn't much more of a stretch.

His super hearing only works on the one he really loves? Meaning Lois and Bruce when he talks to Alfred.

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I think that's looking for plot holes. He hears everyone all the time; he is deliberately tuned in to Lois, specifically, amongst the cacophony. This isn't exactly something they invented in this movie - it's a fairly constant trope of the character. The Alfred bit was him hearing the radio frequency.

Sups death lacks drama. Was it really necessary aside from respecting the canon when it comes to him fighting Dommsday?

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I didn't expect it and didn't feel it lacked drama. I didn't like the look of Doomsday and found all the fiery glowy stuff confusing and messy, but that particular aspect was just fine.

Unless Batman's dream sequence with the parademons was a climpse in the next Justice League film. Maybe Sups does join Darkseid. The time travelling Flash that talks to Bruce seems to think so.

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Absolutely. Parademons. Omega symbol burnt into the desert. Lex's harbinging. It's all Darkseid.

What I love is that Darkseid feels like he's gonna feel really evil, something I don't get from the Thanos hints in Marvel. That's the cartoon vs. mythology tonal difference, and I really appreciate the different styles. Darkseid already feels ominous to me.

Hypersmurf said:

One thing that really surprised me - we have a monster, and a monster-killing spear. Who should use it? The Bronze Age War Goddess holding a sword right now, or the dude who gets weak as a kitten by being within ten feet of the thing?

I mean, as soon as Batman revealed that he'd forged a Kryptonite spear, I immediately had the flash-forward in my head to Wonder Woman hurling it like Brad-Pitt-as-Achilles-in-Troy, and it was gonna be awesome.

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Oh god yes.

goldomark said:

How does Batman know where Martha is? Was Barbara Gordon has Oracle suppose to help him?

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They actually explained that. He tracked the signal from the cloned phone.

Because Luthor only uses the one set of thugs and didn't hire a different group to kidnap Martha Kent. And conveniently flew her to Metropolis rather than having the thugs just keep her in Kansas. Or a third location that would make it harder for Superman to track down.

Morrus said:

While I agree he's the weakest of the main leads, I'm fine with the concept. There's no one Lex, any more than there's one Bats or Supes. The comics have had mad scientist Luthor, industrialist Luthor, politician Luthor, gangster Luthor, playboy Luthor. TV and movies have had different Luthors, too - buffoon Luthor, high school Luthor, "criminal mastermind" Luthor, etc. Harbinger Luthor isn't much more of a stretch.

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In this case, with the writing and acting it doesn't work.

I think that's looking for plot holes. He hears everyone all the time; he is deliberately tuned in to Lois, specifically, amongst the cacophony. This isn't exactly something they invented in this movie - it's a fairly constant trope of the character. The Alfred bit was him hearing the radio frequency.

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And she doesn't whisper to him "Luthor knows your secret identity."? Weak. The news is huge. Telling him is paramount. This means that the main event of the film (B v S) is the plan of a badly written vilain whose plot depends on characters acting stupidly. It limits my enjoyment of the film. Like Batman could have listen to what Sups was going to say. "Hey Bats, Luthor manipulated both of us and now my mom is held hostage."

Not that there isn't completely unenjoyable. Snyder is a comic book fan who made a film for comic book fans. That last heart beat is a refence to heart beat Sups here at the end of the Darl Knight Returns. I got out of there full of adrenaline wanting to see the extended cut. But damn it, stop insulting audiences with lazy plots.

I didn't expect it and didn't feel it lacked drama. I didn't like the look of Doomsday and found all the fiery glowy stuff confusing and messy, but that particular aspect was just fine.

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I expect Superman to die when he fights Doomsday for the first time. That is what that monster does. He isn't a mad scientist, a general out to kryptoform a planet or out to conquer a Earth. Writers created him to kill Superman.

Absolutely. Parademons. Omega symbol burnt into the desert. Lex's harbinging. It's all Darkseid.

What I love is that Darkseid feels like he's gonna feel really evil, something I don't get from the Thanos hints in Marvel. That's the cartoon vs. mythology tonal difference, and I really appreciate the different styles. Darkseid already feels ominous to me.

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Plot twist, Mr. Mxyzptlk is the main antagonist!

I do not see Thanos as evil as Darkseid. Thanos is more amoral while Darkseid is immoral.

It's impressive how such an action-packed film can be so boring.

I think it is going to be the most polarizing superhero film made to date.

goldomark said:

I think it is going to be the most polarizing superhero film made to date.

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That might still be Dark Knight Rises or Age of Ulton, whose biggest sins weren't a lack of quality but not being as good as predecessors.
Geeky movies, that's no contest. Force Awakens and Into Darkness are far more divisive.

Second viewing might change some minds. Watching a film again can shift opinions, when you remove surprise and wonder and the ineffable glee of seeing Superman and Batman together. Will it stand up?
I mean, I *loved* the first Abrams Trek film when I left the theatre. Then I watched it a couple more times and the flaws just became more and more apparent...