D&D 5E Can we optimize a Small Barbarian?

famousringo · Apr 11, 2016

GrumpyGamer said:
Halfling Nimbleness: You can move through the
space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.

Mobile (Feat):
+10 movement.
Don't Provoke against any target you attack in a round, regardless of if you hit.

I know you said Bear totem Barbarian but...

5 Berserker Barbarian / 3 Hunter Ranger
Using Horde Breaker and Frenzy you could have 4 attacks (if two enemies are next to each other; 3 attacks if not) and retreat to "safety" each turn. It might not be the maximum build for damage per round, but it does a good job of optimizing your small size.

You become a whirling death ball.
4*(4.5 (Longsword) +2 Dueling style +5 Strength + 2 Rage damage) = 54 damage (Assuming all hits and no crits)

Bonus: You can use a shield, so that helps a bit with AC, so with an 18 Dex and a 16 Con you have an AC of 19.

I like the idea of using halfling nimbleness to get right into the thick of the enemy so you can whirlwind them, but a barbarian shouldn't be trying to retreat to safety. It's the barbarian's job to engage the enemy and soak the hits with damage resistance so the squishy ranged attackers aren't engaged. Leave the hit-and-runs to rogues and gishes.

GrumpyGamer · Apr 12, 2016

famousringo said:
I like the idea of using halfling nimbleness to get right into the thick of the enemy so you can whirlwind them, but a barbarian shouldn't be trying to retreat to safety. It's the barbarian's job to engage the enemy and soak the hits with damage resistance so the squishy ranged attackers aren't engaged. Leave the hit-and-runs to rogues and gishes.

Good points. If your goal is to get in and be sticky you could take Sentinel feat for the improved opportunity attacks or the Martial Adept feat for a combat trick. I think Sentinel is likely to have a bigger impact in a fight. You could also keep Mobile for the extra maneuverability in combat, but a move of 35 (Barbarian Fast Movement) likely gets the job done.

Blue · Apr 12, 2016

XMorsX said:
Greetings. Halflings make better dex barbs than str[...]

Are Dex barbs a thing? Rage damage bonus only grants to Str based melee weapon attacks, and Reckless attack is also only for Str melee weapon attacks.

All barbs like some dex, they are capped at medium armor. But it seems a dex barb would be giving up a lot of damage.

XMorsX · Apr 12, 2016

Blue said:
Are Dex barbs a thing? Rage damage bonus only grants to Str based melee weapon attacks, and Reckless attack is also only for Str melee weapon attacks.

All barbs like some dex, they are capped at medium armor. But it seems a dex barb would be giving up a lot of damage.

Suboptimal concept for sure, but you basically only give up the damage you mentioned. You still get the resistance from rage and whatever totem you chose. It just needs some help with finding alternative sources of damage, crossbow expert and a fighter / rogue dip being the most obvious ones.

Given that halflings can not use GWM, the biggest limitation of a dex based melee barbarian is also a non issue, so it can be a decent alternative with some juggling.

Of course, the dwarf option makes the points above somewhat moot. Mountain dwarf makes for a great GWM barbarian, and you can also opt for the batterager archetype which gives a way to spend your bonus action and most importantly take temporary HP with reckless attacks. Not stronger than bear but it can be just as effective if you go barb for at least 6 lvls. Fighter still makes for a great 1-3 lvl dip.

Z. H. Darkstar · Apr 12, 2016

While probably not the most optimal build for DPR, it does have reaching character.

Gnomega Red
Deep Gnome Bear Barbarian 5/Battle Master Fighter 3
Take Sentinel as your free feat (I'm assuming that its part of your character creation house rules) and swap out the Barb 4 ASI for the Dual Wielder feat. TWF FS is a given for this. Dual wield a pair of whips and whip the shtako out of everyone around you.

While you're using the smallest damage dice, your flat damage bonuses would help to mitigate that. Just because a whip is a finesse weapon, that doesn't mean you can't use Str to make attacks with it. The tradeoff is that you've effectively doubled the range of your stickiness. Plus using a reach weapon helps compensate the 5' speed loss by playing a Small character, although Fast Movement does that itself too.

For maneuvers, I'd go with Precision Attack, Riposte, and either Menacing Attack or Goading Attack. Precision Attack is useful for making sure those opportunity attacks hit. Riposte gives you another option for making an attack as a reaction, on top of those provided by Sentinel. Menacing Attack and Goading Attack are both good options that add to your stickiness. If you feel up to it, a later ASI could be spent on getting Martial Adept for the other maneuver, Tripping Attack, and an extra superiority die.

As for 9th level and beyond, your stats leave yourself open to the possibility of going Swashbuckler Rogue the rest of the way to increase your DPR potential. The primary tradeoff of 12 Rogue levels would be losing Barb HD, Feral Sense, Brutal Critical and Rage progression in exchange for 6d6 Sneak Attack, more options for your bonus action and reaction, Evasion, extra skill proficiency, Expertise, one extra ASI, and Rakish Audacity. I would go with 20 16 18 10 10 12 as your stats. The tradeoff of a slightly lower initiative for more HP gets mitigated at Rogue 3, when you would get to add the +1 from Cha to initiative. While you would be more Rogue than Barbarian by class level, you would still mechanically be a raging whip micromachine. Just some food for thought.

Edit: Going Rogue 8/Barb 4 for the last 12 levels might be a happy medium. You'd get up to Evasion and 4d6 SA from the Rogue side, while making Brutal Critical your capstone feature. That's of course assuming that the campaign goes up to 20th level. If you're ending sooner than that, stick to just the Rogue levels.

Sezarious · Apr 13, 2016

Ok so here i think is what MAY work. I didn't much like your starting Ability scores because i couldn't shuffle them about much, trying to keep in mind MC Ability score prerequisites too. Here's my suggestion, similar to a previous suggestion above but just my take on all the details:

Stout Halfling - Bear Totem Barb 5, Hoardbreaker Hunter Ranger 3

Str:20
Dex: 12 (Becomes 14)
Con: 18 (Becomes 19)
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

AC: 18 (Half plate 15+ Dex mod 2 + Dual Weapon Fighting 1)
HP: 90 (12 from barb lv 1, (4X7=)28 from barb lvs 2 to 5, (3X6=)18 from Rang lvs 1 to 3 + (8X4=)32 from con mod)
Speed: 35ft

Standard 3 attacks at +8 (1d8+5 each), 4 attacks whenever enemies stand within 5 ft of each other.

When out of Rages, consider using Hunters Mark for extra 1d6 damage per hit.

I suggest eventual Ranger 4 Barbarian 8, Fighter (Champion or Battlemaster) 8

This will give you enough ASI's to max out Dex and Con with 2 ASI's to spare, also it will give you a second fighting style, which you can put into defense. When Dex and Con are increased twice, take your armor off, when they're maxed, your ac will be 22! My suggestions for those 2 ASI's/feats you'd have to spare? Well, looking at action economy, maybe sentinel, or maybe defensive duellist, OR how's this... Ritual Caster, Where the ritual you get from it is Phantom Steed. Summon a riding dog and dual wield Lances.... Mwuhahahahah.

Sezarious · Apr 13, 2016

SCRATCH that, more effectively is Barb 2, Fighter 6, you'll just have to be patient to get lv 3 barb for the awesome bear resistance... So bear with me here, this is way more efficient:

Barbarian 2, Fighter 6

Str:20
Dex: 18 (Racial +2= 20)
Con: 16 (Racial +1= 19, +1 ASI, = 18)
Int: 10
Wis: 12 (+1 ASI = 13)
Cha: 10

AC: Unarmored AC 19+1 (Dual Wielder)=20
HP:12+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+32=87hp

TWF fighting style

ASI's:
Fighter 4th (Total lv 6th): Dual Wielder Feat
Fighter 6th Total lv 8th): +1 to Wis, +1 to Con

After this, you're now ready to Multiclass into Ranger whenever you're ready! But probably level up Barbarian to 4th first to max out your con, therefore your AC. Keep a lookout for magically enhanced shields! Ranger 4th and then fighter 8th for ASIs. Hell, with those 2 ASI's you could increase Charisma to 13+, then just stay at barbarian lv 4 and go 4 levels in fiendish warlock for the power of getting temp hp with every kill (which is effectively doubled when you rage). Suddenly you'll also have 2 really nice/short rest spell slots too

UngeheuerLich · Apr 14, 2016

Hey. To better make a char, please tell me about your houserules. I don't know how you got to those stats and an additional feat. Do you ignore ability boosts from race and class and have a different way?

Dasem · Apr 15, 2016

We are totally ignoring racial bonuses. We are keeping racial traits. So as an example, I would incorporate the +2 Dex and +1 Int of an Eladrin, but I would use Fey Ancestry, Fey Step, etc.

Sezarious · Apr 16, 2016

Barbarian 2, Fighter 6

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12 (+1 ASI = 13)
Cha: 10

AC: Unarmored AC 17+1 (Dual Wielder)=18 (19 in half plate)
HP:12+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+24=79hp

TWF fighting style

ASI's:
Fighter 4th (Total lv 6th): Dual Wielder Feat
Fighter 6th Total lv 8th): Resilient (Half Feat) - Wisdom (+1 ASI)

------------------------------------

Sorry I originally zoned out on your information before that racial bonuses wouldn't count.

So I corrected things. If you're starting as the above, I'd do the following:

+2 lvs: Progress to to Barbarian lv4 - Take +2 Con ASI for 18 Con. (Total lv 10)

+4 lvs: Progress to Ranger lv4 - Take +2 Con ASI for 18 Con. (Total lv 14)

+2 lvs: Progress to Fighter lv8 - Take +2 Con ASI for 20 Con. (Total lv 16)

+4 lvs: 4 levels in whatever you feel at this point - Take +2 Dex ASI for 20 Dex. (Total lv 20)