D&D 5E Considering new ritual spells

Augoeides · Sep 24, 2016

What would be the cons of giving the following spells a ritual version?

ArcaneEye
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]ArcaneGate[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Banishment[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Clone[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]ConjureSpells (all)[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Etherealness[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Gate[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Glyphof Warding[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]LegendLore[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Leomund’sSecret Chest[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Mordenkainen’sFaithful Hound[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Mordenkainen’sPrivate Sanctum[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]ModifyMemory[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]PhantasmalTerrain[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Sending[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Simulacrum[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Symbol[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]TeleportationCircle[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Trapthe Soul[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, serif]TrueSeeing[/FONT]

Nagol · Sep 24, 2016

The con would be an upgrade in spell casters' (mainly Wizard eyeballing the list) out of combat utility with no attendant cost for the improvement.

Dausuul · Sep 24, 2016

Arcane Eye: Wizard can now scout for free, rogue out of a job.
Arcane Gate: Expands party's mobility, but this is a rarely-used spell. Nothing major.
Banishment: Nothing major. This is mostly a combat spell, so a ritual version will rarely see use.
Clone: Essentially no effect. This is a "downtime spell" anyway.
Conjure spells (all): The party sets up camp at the dungeon entrance and sends a parade of conjured monsters in until all traps have been triggered and minor encounters dealt with.
Etherealness: Frees up the wizard to use a 7th-level spell slot on combat instead of travel/infiltration.
Gate: Frees up the wizard to use a 9th-level spell slot on combat instead of travel/infiltration.
Glyph of Warding: Every campsite will be fortified all to hell and gone. Every dungeon will have more PC-set traps than monster-set ones. Strongly recommend against this one.
Legend Lore: Nothing too serious due to the material component.
Leomund’s Secret Chest: Essentially no effect. This is a "downtime spell" anyway.
Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound: Frees up the wizard to use a 4th-level spell slot on combat instead of camp defense.
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum: Nothing major.
Modify Memory: I would stay way the hell away from this one. Creative players will abuse hell out of being able to rewrite captured NPCs' memories more or less at will.
Phantasmal Terrain: Assuming you mean hallucinatory terrain: This allows the party to cover huge expanses of territory with illusion at no cost for 24 hours. Could be seriously abused.
Sending: At-will long-distance communication can make a big difference depending on the campaign.
Simulacrum: Frees up the wizard to use an 8th-level spell slot on combat instead of making copies of herself.
Symbol: Frees up the wizard to use a 7th-level spell slot on combat instead of setting an uber-trap.
Teleportation Circle: Frees up the wizard to use a 5th-level spell slot on combat instead of an escape hatch.
Trap the Soul: You would have to give this spell a non-ritual version first. It doesn't exist. It's in the PHB spell list by mistake.
True Seeing: All PCs will have true seeing up at all times. No more illusions, invisible monsters, secret doors, etc.

I would be very, very careful about adding the ritual tag to spells. It powers-up the wizard significantly, and it's very easy to break your game if you do it to the wrong spell. Don't do it pre-emptively on a big swath of spells like this. Go one at a time and consider the impact with care.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 24, 2016

I think teleportation circle makes more sense as a ritual than a non ritual spell. Not sure I buy the argument hat it's a problem to free up a high level spell slot "for combat". That is a potential issue with the existence of rituals, not with any specific ritual.

One way around some of the issues issues would also be to change ritual casting time. Maybe 5 minutes per spell level?

I'm A Banana · Sep 24, 2016

Augoeides said:
What would be the cons of giving the following spells a ritual version?

Lets go one by one!

Arcane Eye: There would be no cost to constantly scrying on everything, entirely removing the relevance of any other scouting method.
Arcane Gate: There would be no cost to constantly teleporting to every location you can see, removing the relevance of walking.
Banishment: This might fare a bit better, but any creature in the campaign that you can watch for 10 minutes can wind up *poofed* to another plane for a minute with no cost? This becomes the most effective way to remove any sentinels or guards.
Clone: This might fare OK, but risks Infinite Clones (or as many as you can afford anyway), if there's no slot cost.
ConjureSpells (all): INFINITE ALLIES.
Etherealness: There would be no cost to always being ethereal, making this the best scouting method.
Gate: INFINITE PORTALS.
Glyph of Warding: INFINITE TRAPS.
Legend Lore: This might fare OK, but there would be little cost to learning information about the object, making this the best information-gathering method as long as you had the gp.
Leomond's Secret Chest: This might be OK, but you can squirrel away as many chests as you want for free.
Faithful Hound: INFINITE WATCHDOGS
Private Sanctum: INFINITE WARDS
Modify Memory: INFINITE NEW MEMORIES
Hallucinatory Terrain: INFINITE ILLUSIONS
Sending: Becomes the best way to communicate, because hey free telepathy.
Simulacrum: INFINITE SIMULACRA (well, as many as you can afford)
Symbol: INFINITE TRAPS
Teleportation Circle: INFINITE TELEPORTS
Trap the Soul: See Banishment
True Seeing: Become the best scout.

A lot of these fall into big buckets, so let's get a higher level:

First: Not being a ritual stops a thing from being "effectively infinite with enough time." Rituals take time to cast, but other than that, they're free. A GP cost on some spells or expensive material components might practically limit this in some instances, but gold isn't something the game uses as a balancing mechanism, so exactly how powerful this can be would wildly vary with the campaign. A slot is basically the same in more games.

Second: Casters Should Not Replace Skill Checks. Costing a slot is how casters get to - for a moment - be more effective than any skill can be. They can't do it all day every day, and for the higher-level effects, they can only do it 1/day. Without that cost, a caster could just do that spell all the time, and thus anyone who wanted their character to be, I dunno, the Stealthiest Scout, would have their experience ruined because someone with a particular spell would always be a better scout than them.

Third: Just because a certain spell is cast over a long period of time or out of a fight doesn't mean that it should be a "ritual" in the 5e meaning of the term. The casting process for, say, Leomund's Secret Chest, is pretty ritualistic, but it's not a ritual in the game, because you can't do it without spending a spell slot.

Hope that helps!

Augoeides · Sep 24, 2016

I'm A Banana said:
Lets go one by one!

Arcane Eye: There would be no cost to constantly scrying on everything, entirely removing the relevance of any other scouting method.

Arcane Gate: There would be no cost to constantly teleporting to every location you can see, removing the relevance of walking.

Banishment: This might fare a bit better, but any creature in the campaign that you can watch for 10 minutes can wind up *poofed* to another plane for a minute with no cost? This becomes the most effective way to remove any sentinels or guards.

Clone: This might fare OK, but risks Infinite Clones (or as many as you can afford anyway), if there's no slot cost.

ConjureSpells (all): INFINITE ALLIES.

Etherealness: There would be no cost to always being ethereal, making this the best scouting method.

Gate: INFINITE PORTALS.

Glyph of Warding: INFINITE TRAPS.

Legend Lore: This might fare OK, but there would be little cost to learning information about the object, making this the best information-gathering method as long as you had the gp.

Leomond's Secret Chest: This might be OK, but you can squirrel away as many chests as you want for free.

Faithful Hound: INFINITE WATCHDOGS

Private Sanctum: INFINITE WARDS

Modify Memory: INFINITE NEW MEMORIES

Hallucinatory Terrain: INFINITE ILLUSIONS

Sending: Becomes the best way to communicate, because hey free telepathy.

Simulacrum: INFINITE SIMULACRA (well, as many as you can afford)

Symbol: INFINITE TRAPS

Teleportation Circle: INFINITE TELEPORTS

Trap the Soul: See Banishment

True Seeing: Become the best scout.

A lot of these fall into big buckets, so let's get a higher level:

First: Not being a ritual stops a thing from being "effectively infinite with enough time." Rituals take time to cast, but other than that, they're free. A GP cost on some spells or expensive material components might practically limit this in some instances, but gold isn't something the game uses as a balancing mechanism, so exactly how powerful this can be would wildly vary with the campaign. A slot is basically the same in more games.

Second: Casters Should Not Replace Skill Checks. Costing a slot is how casters get to - for a moment - be more effective than any skill can be. They can't do it all day every day, and for the higher-level effects, they can only do it 1/day. Without that cost, a caster could just do that spell all the time, and thus anyone who wanted their character to be, I dunno, the Stealthiest Scout, would have their experience ruined because someone with a particular spell would always be a better scout than them.

Third: Just because a certain spell is cast over a long period of time or out of a fight doesn't mean that it should be a "ritual" in the 5e meaning of the term. The casting process for, say, Leomund's Secret Chest, is pretty ritualistic, but it's not a ritual in the game, because you can't do it without spending a spell slot.

Hope that helps!

I have some errands to run, but when I return, I'll respond.
I do believe "no cost" is ignoring the time cost of casting the spell and the spell component cost. It also ignores material component cost. Gate, for example, costs a diamond worth 5,000 gp. NOTE: that's not "costs 5,000gp," you have to find a single diamond that large. I don't have time right now to check the DMG, but I don't think those are all that common.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 24, 2016

Augoeides said:
I have some errands to run, but when I return, I'll respond.
I do believe "no cost" is ignoring the time cost of casting the spell and the spell component cost. It also ignores material component cost. Gate, for example, costs a diamond worth 5,000 gp. NOTE: that's not "costs 5,000gp," you have to find a single diamond that large. I don't have time right now to check the DMG, but I don't think those are all that common.

I think in most groups, they aren't going to sweat the rarity of a spell component. In many groups, spells have no material components.

Augoeides · Sep 24, 2016

I'm A Banana said:
Arcane Eye: There would be no cost to constantly scrying on everything, entirely removing the relevance of any other scouting method.

As long as all you want to be scouting is within 30ft. Not really scouting.

I'm A Banana said:
Arcane Gate: There would be no cost to constantly teleporting to every location you can see, removing the relevance of walking.Lets go one by one!Arcane Eye is effective only up to 30ft.

500ft per 10 minutes (600 seconds). That's less than a foot a second and probably won't know what you're teleporting into.

I'm A Banana said:
Banishment: This might fare a bit better, but any creature in the campaign that you can watch for 10 minutes can wind up *poofed* to another plane for a minute with no cost? This becomes the most effective way to remove any sentinels or guards.

The creature has to be within your 60ft range for the ten minutes it takes to cast the ritual. It gets a save. It returns within a minute. You have to know about the creature ahead of time so that you can get something distasteful to it.

I'm A Banana said:
Clone: This might fare OK, but risks Infinite Clones (or as many as you can afford anyway), if there's no slot cost.

Even if it weren't a ritual, it risks infinite clones (or as many as you can afford anyway).

I'm A Banana said:
ConjureSpells (all): INFINITE ALLIES.

You can cast only six of these spells in an hour (the duration of the spell), so you can have only six of these up at a time and if you lose your concentration against one, you are very likely to lose concentration against all of them.

I'm A Banana said:
Etherealness: There would be no cost to always being ethereal, making this the best scouting method.

If you are going to use this to scout, remember that you've got a 60ft visual range. Which means that any enemy you stumble across is likely to see you long before you see them. That makes it not the best scouting method.

I'm A Banana said:
Gate: INFINITE PORTALS.

Limited by how many 5000gp diamonds you can find and this is a ninth level spell. Infinite Portals seems well within the acceptable range for an archmage.

I'm A Banana said:
Glyph of Warding: INFINITE TRAPS.

If you want to waste your entire day moving at an exceptionally slow pace.

I'm A Banana said:
Legend Lore: This might fare OK, but there would be little cost to learning information about the object, making this the best information-gathering method as long as you had the gp.

Only of objects which are of legendary importance. You want to know about the local thieves' guild? Or some minor temple in the backwoods of nowhere? Legend Lore won't help you there.

I'm A Banana said:
Leomond's Secret Chest: This might be OK, but you can squirrel away as many chests as you want for free.

Not really seeing the problem.

I'm A Banana said:
Faithful Hound: INFINITE WATCHDOGS

You cast the spell, it is limited to a specific space. What are you going to do, bait all your enemies to a 30ft radius area? Because you can't move more than 100ft away.

I'm A Banana said:
Private Sanctum: INFINITE WARDS

I'm A Banana said:
Modify Memory: INFINITE NEW MEMORIES

You are going to have to incapacitate the target without fighting it (unless you don't care about it rolling its save at advantage). If the creature realizes what that you are casting a ritual and you are not a friend, it isn't going to hang around for you to finish.

I'm A Banana said:
Hallucinatory Terrain: INFINITE ILLUSIONS

A very specific kind of illusion. Again, not seeing the problem here.

I'm A Banana said:
Sending: Becomes the best way to communicate, because hey free telepathy.

Again, not really seeing the problem here.

I'm A Banana said:
Simulacrum: INFINITE SIMULACRA (well, as many as you can afford)

But, you can do the same thing now without using a ritual

I'm A Banana said:
Symbol: INFINITE TRAPS

At 1000gp a pop, besides are you really going to go through a dungeon at one foot per minute?

I'm A Banana said:
Teleportation Circle: INFINITE TELEPORTS

And..?

I'm A Banana said:
Trap the Soul: See Banishment

I don't have the details of that spell on hand, but I believe most of my responses to your comments on Banishment apply.

I'm A Banana said:
True Seeing: Become the best scout.

The creature still has to get to where they can see with true sight. That prevents them from becoming the best scout. It doesn't give them stealth, insight, perception of things which aren't hidden (small things or the like), investigation, knowledge skills, etc. So, not really the best scout.

Leatherhead · Sep 25, 2016

Any spell that does damage, heals, or that is level 7 or above shouldn't be considered for making a ritual. Spells that gain more power depending on the spell slot used should also be discouraged from being ritualized.
Which includes most of the spells here, some of them several times over.

And a few of those options would quite honestly reshape the world as we know it.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 25, 2016

10 minutes is too long for combat, so the damage objection is mostly moot. Healing objection is also iffy at best, because healing outside of combat is easy, ritual cure wounds isn't going to change that.

As for the level objection, could you extrapolate your reasoning on that one?