Converting Jedi classes into D&D psionic alternatives

Desdichado · Apr 25, 2003

Anyone thought of doing this yet? Or already done it? What do you use to replace the lightsaber ability, for instance? Any suggestions would be nice.

Nifft · Apr 25, 2003

Problems: Using "Dark Side" powers without "Dark Side" points. There are plenty of skills which D&D characters would use without thinking -- who wouldn't Force Grip a Beholder if he could?

Since D&D and SW morality are so different -- there is no such thing as "Common Evil That Needs Killing" in SW, while it's a staple in D&D (manifesting itself as Orcs, Goblins, Undead, Devils, Demons, etc.) -- it's hard to judge how powerful an unfettered Jedi would be.

When you compare the damage potential of a Jedi vs. a Psion at various levels, what do you see?

-- Nifft

Jack Daniel · Apr 25, 2003

Generally speaking, Jedi are much closer to monks than psions in terms of abilties (and inspiration). The consular could easily be made into an alternate monk, with the guardian becoming a wushi/bushi ["knight"/"warrior"] (funny how that looks so much like Jedi Knight, eh?)

Psionics are true psychic powers, and they don't manipulate life-force; they're more like Vulcan mind-meld than Jedi mind-tricks. So to answer your question, no, I'd never bother with force feats & skills as alternate psionics.

Desdichado · Apr 25, 2003

Leaving aside the peanut gallery for a moment, anybody want to answer my question?

As to morality, that's a moot point. Alignment is the first thing I ditch in any game I ever run. I see that as a complete non-issue.

As to comparison with psions or any other class, I'm talking about yanking all "magic" classes altogether and replacing them with something jedi-like. I agree, the basic jedi guardian is more what I'd imagine a psychic warrior like than a psion, but the jedi consular starts to become a little more psion-like.

kkoie · Apr 26, 2003

How are you going to roleplay Jedi properly without some clear cut definition of good and evil?

Desdichado · Apr 26, 2003

I thought it was pretty obvious from the title that I'm not going to be roleplaying Jedi at all. I want to convert the mechanics of the Jedi into something that would fit a more fantasy genre; i.e., get rid of the lightsaber and a few other special abilities.

Look, if nobody's done it, then I surely can, I suppose, I just didn't want to type it all out if someone else had already done it. I hardly need to get involved in any debates on if I should be doing it at all, especially from folks who have no idea what kind of campaign I'm thinking of running this guy in. If you have no idea what kind of campaign I'm thinking of running, you can hardly tell me that things like good and evil are big problems for making the conversion.

Nifft · Apr 26, 2003

Look. Every class has limitations. In the case of the Jedi, one of the limitations is moral.

It is a MECHANICAL limitation -- NOT a "flavor" limitation. The moral issues involved in using Dark Side powers are MECHANICAL, and the Dark Side points you get are also MECHANICAL.

What you're asking is like:
- "I want to compare Psions and Jedi, but forget all that Power Point crap."
- "I want to compare Mages and Clerics, but ignore the whole spellbook issue."

Now, about Jedi vs. Psions.

Jedi are much weaker in a D&D universe than they are in SW. In SW, they can deflect blaster attacks -- and blasters are the main weapons of non-Jedi. In a D&D universe, they'd have trouble, since swords and arrows are the main weapons.

If a Jedi is allowed to use Dark Side skills without penalty, that would go a long way towards evening out the playing field. Jedi have no non-Dark direct-damage powers, but the Dark Side powers are good damage dealers, and on par with a Psion's powers.

For example, a 1st level Amoral D&D Jedi with the Force Sensitive and Alter Feats, 4 ranks in Force Strike, and a +2 bonus via Int, would (on average, or when taking 10) do 3d4 HP worth of damage in a 5' burst for 2 Vitality Points, with a Reflex DC of 15. That's pretty reliable damage for a low cost.

Force Lightning does 3d8 damage to all within a 30 ft. by 15 ft. rectangle. The save for a 1st level character with 4 ranks and a +2 bonus for Int is Reflex DC 20. Without the drawback of taking a Dark Side point, this skill would rule -- even at the cost of 6 VP.

-- Nifft

argo · Apr 26, 2003

Nifft is correct about the Lightside/Darkside issue being more than just flavor. I am playing in a Darkside campagin right now and the guy who is playing the Dark force adept has used Force Lightning all of two times in ten sessions, and each time he cleaned house. I shudder to think of the damage he could do if he was using those abilities on a regular basis. He has been trying to keep the Darkside points under control but I found out that he is up to thirteen points now and starting to feel nervous about making those Fort saves. Another team member is already starting to make plans for the day when the Dark Adept totally looses control and tries to kill us all. So yeah, Darkside points matter.

But I will go beyond even that. Darkside points or no, the Jedi classes rock. SW is a universe where everybody walks around with one handed ranged weapons that do more damage than a greatsword and a Jedi can _still_ take on all comers. Which is right and just and as it should be. Jedi should be uber, Jedi should kick @$$

In the SW universe.

In any other setting they will be overpowered. I mean just look at the Jedi Guardian, he gets: Fighters BAB and Hit Die, three good saves, the second best defense bonus, four skill points per level, and enough bonus feats and special abilities to make even a monk jealous.

I don't think that you can simply do a straight conversion of the Jedi classes into a conventional D&D setting and call it balanced.

However, with that being said. I think that you could use the SW system of force powers as a good template on which to base an alternate psi system. To wit: take a feat to make an exclusive skill a class skill (can't get the skill on a class skill list, only by taking the feat) then spend vitality/power points/whatever to activate the skill and your skill check determines what kind of results/how effective the power is. You would have to start from scratch designing the skills and balancing them (the force skills being, again, _really_ powerfull) but it would probably work.

Or you might want to wait until the B5 game comes out as I hear that they will be handling Tep powers in a similar manner.

And just so you don't get mad that nobody is helping you answer your question: if you want a psion to have a lightsaber just say that, as a class ability, his psi crystal can produce a blade of energy with the stats of a lightsaber and he can deflect arrows and do all the cool Jedi lightsaber things with it. You have just handed him the most powerfull meele weapon in the game but as the DM I'm sure you can balance it

hong · Apr 26, 2003

Nifft said:
Since D&D and SW morality are so different -- there is no such thing as "Common Evil That Needs Killing" in SW, while it's a staple in D&D (manifesting itself as Orcs, Goblins, Undead, Devils, Demons, etc.) -- it's hard to judge how powerful an unfettered Jedi would be.

D00d, stormtroopers is orcs, even if they don't have as much body hair. Faceless mooks is faceless mooks, whether they're firing a blaster ineffectually, or swinging a greataxe ineffectually.