D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

Schattenriss · Oct 16, 2016

Some comments/thoughts about eleven bladesingers (no human variant with starting feat):

1) Paladin 2 / Bladesinger X
How would you build the paladin 2 / bladesinger X and which feats would you take? I can see that wielding two weapons would still work (to get another chance for divine smite) although I probably would skip the dual wielding feat. Instead Warcaster, mobile, and 2x(DEX+2) would be taken.

2) Fighter 1 / Bladesinger X
As a second thought in general, I am tempted to take out the dual wilding field (trading two Rapiers for two short swords means 3 points of less damage in a full attack round, plus the AC is dropped by 1) and instead use the mobile feat. For increased mobility.
Feats: mobile, warcaster, DEX+2, DEX+2, Int+2

3) Pure bladesinger
The Beaty I see here is the flexibility. You could either work with 2 weapons (short swords) or use the bonus action for a spell. If 2 weapons are used, it would be short swords. In comparison to the Rapiers of the Fighter 1/bladesinger X build, the average damage is 3 points lower (three d8 vs. three d6). In Addition the fighter dual fighting style has to be substracted. If DEX would have been maxed out a full attack round would loose 5 points on the off hand attack. In total 8 average damage are traded to get more flexibility and to free up a feat. So I could see cases where the bonus action is used on flaming sphere or misty step or animate dead.
Feats would be: mobile, warcaster, Dex+2, Dex+2, INT+2.

Just some thoughts...

UngeheuerLich · Oct 16, 2016

[MENTION=6803822]NADRIGOL[/MENTION] I just recently noticed that haste allowed to do haste attack with additional offhand. Then you are not able to use extra attack but it will still be worth it.

I think extra attack is still useful for the good old longbow which with d8+5 and primary dex may well outdamage your firebolt by length.

GarrettKP · Oct 16, 2016

I play Bladesingers almost exclusively and I tend to agree that too many levels of multiclass deludes the Bladesinger experience. I currently have a level 8 pure Singer in AL and I love it as is. I don't think I'll be multiclassing at all for my build.

My build is a bit different compared to the guide, specifically in how I handle my feats and ASIs. I ignored War Caster and instead took Tough and Resilient Dex at 4 and 8. My last three will be +2 Int, Int and Dex in that order. Having fought a lot of big bads like a Hydra and Beholder, I think Tough was a great take personally.

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Blue · Oct 16, 2016

NADRIGOL said:
As UngeheuerLich points out, at certain levels (with certain builds), dual wielding will out-damage the SCAG cantrips on their own. This can be seen in a few of the tables at the end of the guide. The real synergy comes from Haste however, which allows you to proc your off-hand attack with the Haste granted attack, in the same turn you use one of the SCAG cantrips. I think without this particular combo, the feat expense in the dual wielder build would render it questionable.

I think part of what keeps dual wielding somewhat viable is that it's not getting compared to two-handed weapons or to weapon and shield, both of which are prohibited by Bladesong. I like using Haste for an Attack action to trigger your offhand attack. Considering MAD, I'm not sure how much I'd want to give up an ASI for the feat though. Dex/Int plus if multiclassing whatever you need for that.

Though needing Haste to allow regular+efficient use of a feat seems worrisome. If a DM does the 6-8 combats per day, that's a lot of slots. Especially since in melee you are more likely to be hit and need to make concentration saves even if you have the nice bladesinging bonus. Plus it locks out other concentration spells like Fire Shield and such. And it takes an action to cast, so you are delayed getting into the mix.

Yunru · Oct 16, 2016

Tough is terrible. It gives you +1 hp per level vs +2 Con at the cost of +1 to your Con, and thus concentration, saves and checks.

GarrettKP · Oct 16, 2016

Yunru said:
Tough is terrible. It gives you +1 hp per level vs +2 Con at the cost of +1 to your Con, and thus concentration, saves and checks.

As someone who currently has an active build using Tough, I don't regret taking it over +2 to Con.

First, no check in the game requires Con. So that doesn't factor in.

Second, while an extra plus 1 to saves is nice, it isn't a huge mechanical upgrade. You still don't get proficiency in the save and that is better than just increasing Con. So I'd understand saying that taking Resilient Con is better than Tough, but to get your Con to a point where that would make a big difference in you HP you'd have to dump 3 stats or you can't get Int and Dex to 20.

3rd, an extra 40 HP over an extra 20 is a big difference at higher levels. I'm only level 8 yet I only survived against the Beholder and Hydra I fought because of Tough. I'll take the extra 20 HP over an extra +1 to Con saves. Especially since I already get a bonus to concentration checks for Blade Song.

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Yunru · Oct 16, 2016

Concentration saving throws are important to succeed in. That +1 to it is 5% more chance to save every time you're hit.

The fact that no skill requires Con, doesn't mean no check does. The PHB even lists example checks for each stat. So good luck on that constitution check to endure the harsh desert sun or whatever

Blue · Oct 16, 2016

A few thoughts on multiclassing.

I'm not sure I'd rate Paladin sky blue. Yes, Divine Smite and smite spells, but you're moving Charisma from a dump stat to at least a 13.

Ranger (Hunter) 3 feature Hordebreaker, if you are already using the Haste-for-Attack-Action trick you mentioned, can give you another attack as a afree action.

Sorc has the same Chr issue as Paladin, and brings you a lot less in terms of spells known. But it does have Con saves if you start with it. Twin works nicely with Haste, I wouldn't sideline it. Subtle spell also makes your spells immune to counterspell, so if that's a tactic your DM uses with any regularity it's a great pick.

I also have a few specific-to-UA dip thoughts, btu those are only valid if a DM allows UA.

Mystic is the only other INT primary class. You can get a bunch of alternate nifty abilities. If you go Immortal at 3rd you'll get INT temp HPs every round, which will help with your own HP issues. Also the disiplines can help. The focus for Celerity gives you advantage on init, which lets you get your bladesong style up earlier, before people attack you. Psionic Weapon gives something akin to paladin's Divine Smite, but powered by PP instead of spell slots. If this is a blessing or a missed opportunity depends on how quickly your slots run dry.

Warlock (undying light) gets +Chr damage to all fire and radiant, which can add to some SCAG cantrips and a bunch of spells.

Sorcerer (shadow) has Con saves like all other sorcs - but it also gets to make a Con save against getting reduced to 0 HPs. DC 5+damage. You can make the save every time, not just once. Also once you get sorcery points you can use the to cast darkness you can see though, a nice trick to get advantage.

GarrettKP · Oct 16, 2016

Yunru said:
Concentration saving throws are important to succeed in. That +1 to it is 5% more chance to save every time you're hit.

The fact that no skill requires Con, doesn't mean no check does. The PHB even lists example checks for each stat. So good luck on that constitution check to endure the harsh desert sun or whatever

Making a roll to survive harsh conditions is a Save not a check. It's laid out in the DMG.

The plus one is 5%. Sure. But again with full Int to concentration that's not an issue. One is an issue is dropping to things that do 20+ damage a hit. 40 HP means you survive two of those hits instead of 1.

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