Players with no patience
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Shemeska
Adventurer
Well, I've currently got a player in the 3rd ed Planescape game I run who, unintentionally, has drifted away from the other PC's because by either choices he's made, or random happenstance, he's not been getting involved in the RP. More his fault than not.
So I felt bad as the DM for him and his kobold gatecrasher, so in order to better integrate his character into the game I wrote a plot arc centered around his character's spiritual crisis of sorts and attempt to find out if any of the members of his former pantheon of dieties from his now dead prime world still existed. This led to some rather deep RP for him, and the other players, and opened up a nice can of worms with what they stumbled across in the silvery void of the Astral.
However, back in Sigil, he's once again drifted away from the other PC's. They've as a group, been threatened with death by a Rakshasa they severely PO'd while in the Astral (ie. killed), and they've been paranoid about him sending people after them. So what does the kobold's player decide to do, wander off an go shopping for the entire day, alone.
They end up being safe from one assassination attempt that occurs on the other PC's in their absence, but it doesn't bode well for them wandering around Sigil, alone, with essentially a death contract hanging over their head.
Stupid stuff like this has ended up killing the current character off about 2 times (another death wasn't their fault). And the player's previous character died from spectacular stupidity.
And what gets me most is they wander off and immediately want to get involved in some lengthy and in depth RP with several of my NPC's. One of them, the dust mephit Seamusxanthusxenus, I never intended to be more than a cameo appearance and an annoying one at that. But now it seems every session I'm having to do the mephit and his whiney voice and annoying demeanor to satisfy the otherwise lack of RP the kobold's player would be getting.
I've humored him so far and its been funny at times, and the rest of the players are gushing over the campaign to some extent, so I'm apparently handling it well so far. But I can't bend over backwards just to suit one player who has problems integrating a character even when the DM has tossed opportunities at them.
And on a complete side note, why does it frighten me to see so many tales like these come out of people living in and around Raleigh and Cary in NC. I live in G-vegas myself and run my games up in Raleigh. So it just strikes me as odd how many posters I see from my own state.
So I felt bad as the DM for him and his kobold gatecrasher, so in order to better integrate his character into the game I wrote a plot arc centered around his character's spiritual crisis of sorts and attempt to find out if any of the members of his former pantheon of dieties from his now dead prime world still existed. This led to some rather deep RP for him, and the other players, and opened up a nice can of worms with what they stumbled across in the silvery void of the Astral.
However, back in Sigil, he's once again drifted away from the other PC's. They've as a group, been threatened with death by a Rakshasa they severely PO'd while in the Astral (ie. killed), and they've been paranoid about him sending people after them. So what does the kobold's player decide to do, wander off an go shopping for the entire day, alone.
They end up being safe from one assassination attempt that occurs on the other PC's in their absence, but it doesn't bode well for them wandering around Sigil, alone, with essentially a death contract hanging over their head.
Stupid stuff like this has ended up killing the current character off about 2 times (another death wasn't their fault). And the player's previous character died from spectacular stupidity.
And what gets me most is they wander off and immediately want to get involved in some lengthy and in depth RP with several of my NPC's. One of them, the dust mephit Seamusxanthusxenus, I never intended to be more than a cameo appearance and an annoying one at that. But now it seems every session I'm having to do the mephit and his whiney voice and annoying demeanor to satisfy the otherwise lack of RP the kobold's player would be getting.
I've humored him so far and its been funny at times, and the rest of the players are gushing over the campaign to some extent, so I'm apparently handling it well so far. But I can't bend over backwards just to suit one player who has problems integrating a character even when the DM has tossed opportunities at them.
And on a complete side note, why does it frighten me to see so many tales like these come out of people living in and around Raleigh and Cary in NC. I live in G-vegas myself and run my games up in Raleigh. So it just strikes me as odd how many posters I see from my own state.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
The thread about Piratecat's Pirate game reminded me of the session where my players arrived in Freeport, and spent most of the session speaking with a sea-captain in a tavern.
My throat was raw by the end of it
-Hyp.
Quasqueton
First Post
What? So exactly how does a "good DM" keep this situation from ever happening? (Note that nowhere in this thread has it been said these situations happen on a regular basis -- but they do happen.)
So does a "good DM" make every encounter and every adventure perfectly set up so that every PC has something to do at every moment? How in the world does a "good DM" manage this perfection? Does a "good DM" fudge the encounter, and add monsters on the spur of the moment so every player is challenged?
DM: "Why doesn't someone cast greater magic weapon?"
Player: "We didn't prepare it today."
DM: "Oh. OK. So Bill can fight the golem alone. Here come some gnolls around the corner for Jim and Larry to fight."
I'd really like to hear exactly how a "good DM" pulls these always perfectly balanced encounters. I'd like to hear someone say that they add monsters/challenges in the heat of the moment just so every PC is active.
I've seen encounters that *were* perfectly set up by the DM expecting the players to play smart, but the players totally screw it up.
DM: "Why did you cast wall of fire around the devil? All it did was keep the fighter-types from being able to melee with it."
Player: "I didn't think pitfiends were immune to fire."
DM: "Oh. OK. So the archer can shoot the fiend by himself. Here are some ice zombies attacking so the wizard can have some fun with fire-based spells. And here come some ogres so the barbarian can fight something."
So tell me. Give me an example of how you are able to be the perfect "good DM". I'm dying to learn this trick. I'm flabbergasted at your posts. Really.
Player1: "I want to kill a bunch of stuff and get lots of treasue. That would be fun for me."
DM: "OK. It's my job as a 'good DM' to see that the players are happy."
Player2: "I want to be think and role play social encounters. That would be fun for me."
DM: "OK. Half the enemies in any given room will be bloodthirsty orc barbarians, the other half will be elf bards. My goal in DMing this game is to please the players."
Players: "You're a 'good DM'."
DM: "Thank you. Yes, I am."
Quasqueton
Clueless
Webmonkey
Hypersmurf said:
The thread about Piratecat's Pirate game reminded me of the session where my players arrived in Freeport, and spent most of the session speaking with a sea-captain in a tavern.
My throat was raw by the end of it
-Hyp.
Worse.
I was running a sci-fi game, and the ships engineer ran into s little ai robot. (Think the DDRS from Farscape). It had two antennae that it used to 'talk' with. Up-Up meant yes, Side to side meant no and so forth. The engineer decided to argue AI rights with the thing!
By the end of the evening both left AND right hand were cramped! "Mite" has no vocals... we fixed that shortly thereafter.
Herremann the Wise
First Post
Quasqueton,
I've obviously hit a nerve here but in all honesty, I'm surprised at your flabbergastation. Allow me to elucidate my point of view while expanding upon your points:
In the first instance regarding a Golem, why give the players something that only one of their PC's can affect? A forward thinking DM would perhaps round out the encounter with a few other beasties already there as well. Either that, or not including such an unbalanced encounter in the first place. Simple planning.
In regards to the Devil, the archer and the Wall of Fire. Commonsense is going to tell you that the Devil is not going to play the pin cushion hiding behind the flames if it can help it. It's either going to burst through it and starting ripping throats or kindly vanish to a different plane if it feels over-awed (Not likely ). By the way, the wizard who cast the Wall of Fire after realising his mistake would in all likelyhood stop concentrating on the Wall and start focusing his or her efforts on a more fruitful endeavour.
As to suggestions about being a very good DM I think I can see where most of your difficulties lay and I'll hopefully give you some excellent advice.
Firstly, Dungeons and Dragons is NOT the DM vs the Players. The Players have monsters and encounters to worry about without trying to take on the DM as well. DM's who take such a perspective tend to piss their players off more often than not. The DM's job is to facilitate a good time for all - including themselves. The key to this is to know your rules, know the PC's, their Abilities and Equipment, know your NPC's, Campaign World and Monsters and I suppose most importantly know your Players.
The DM should know the rules like the back of their hand. If you want to keep one step in front of the Players, it is essential. You need to be able to predict what can happen in a particular situation and when the unpredictable does happen, you have to be able to adjust to it very quickly. A full comprehension of the rules is imperative in such situations.
A DM should know exactly what different PC's can and can't do. Know what Feats and Special Abilities PC's have so you can give them encounters where they can use them. There is nothing more frustrating for a player than a DM who tries to neuter characters by circumventing their abilities. Let the Paladin smite the bejesus out of an obviously evil creature, give the rogue a bit of slack (Darkness or proximity) so they can use their sneak attack and let the Magic-users have fun with the handful of spells that they have. If you want to give the PC's a very difficult encounter, give them a way to escape so they can come back prepared for whatever monstrosity you insist on letting loose upon them. In essence, help them build up their characters rather than leaving them to say "God knows why I chose this feat, it's bloody useless".
A DM should be able to give color to their world through their NPC's and the world around them. Use accents, give visuals and most importantly provide variety - "not more undead?!". The issue here is to know your monsters very well. The use of random encounters is really just a crutch for unprepared DM's. A good DM will have planned what they want you to face and has no need for a random encounter table. Such planning means you don't have to tweak stupid encounters. When using a pre-written module, don't be afraid to tweak it here and there if you feel the changes are more appropiate for your PC's. Experience and Monster knowledge is obviously the key to this. For instances where they have to face a particular monster, you will find that it's normally attached to the story of the module. As such, you should have ways for them to find out information about their final enemy so they can prepare accordingly. At least you are giving them a fair chance.
And finally, know your Players. If you know that a group of players likes more in-depth role play, give it to them. If another group is a bunch of munchkin power gamers, give them the combat and XP they crave. When mixing the two, lean more towards combat if you can help it. Using the above should help make it enjoyable for all if not quite as meaty for some. I normally run two campaigns, one for a small group of role players and the other that includes everyone in a more combat related game. Keeps everyone including me happy. However, just as you can have poor DM's, you can have poor players. The trick is to either train them into better players (normally the best option), give in and give them encounter after encounter or more simply, don't invite them at all.
Hopefully, I have shown you that it's not difficult to be a good DM, it just takes time, practice and most importantly preparation. This is why most situations that seemingly require patience really just require a prepared DM.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I've obviously hit a nerve here but in all honesty, I'm surprised at your flabbergastation. Allow me to elucidate my point of view while expanding upon your points:
In the first instance regarding a Golem, why give the players something that only one of their PC's can affect? A forward thinking DM would perhaps round out the encounter with a few other beasties already there as well. Either that, or not including such an unbalanced encounter in the first place. Simple planning.
In regards to the Devil, the archer and the Wall of Fire. Commonsense is going to tell you that the Devil is not going to play the pin cushion hiding behind the flames if it can help it. It's either going to burst through it and starting ripping throats or kindly vanish to a different plane if it feels over-awed (Not likely
). By the way, the wizard who cast the Wall of Fire after realising his mistake would in all likelyhood stop concentrating on the Wall and start focusing his or her efforts on a more fruitful endeavour.As to suggestions about being a very good DM I think I can see where most of your difficulties lay and I'll hopefully give you some excellent advice.
Firstly, Dungeons and Dragons is NOT the DM vs the Players. The Players have monsters and encounters to worry about without trying to take on the DM as well. DM's who take such a perspective tend to piss their players off more often than not. The DM's job is to facilitate a good time for all - including themselves. The key to this is to know your rules, know the PC's, their Abilities and Equipment, know your NPC's, Campaign World and Monsters and I suppose most importantly know your Players.
The DM should know the rules like the back of their hand. If you want to keep one step in front of the Players, it is essential. You need to be able to predict what can happen in a particular situation and when the unpredictable does happen, you have to be able to adjust to it very quickly. A full comprehension of the rules is imperative in such situations.
A DM should know exactly what different PC's can and can't do. Know what Feats and Special Abilities PC's have so you can give them encounters where they can use them. There is nothing more frustrating for a player than a DM who tries to neuter characters by circumventing their abilities. Let the Paladin smite the bejesus out of an obviously evil creature, give the rogue a bit of slack (Darkness or proximity) so they can use their sneak attack and let the Magic-users have fun with the handful of spells that they have. If you want to give the PC's a very difficult encounter, give them a way to escape so they can come back prepared for whatever monstrosity you insist on letting loose upon them. In essence, help them build up their characters rather than leaving them to say "God knows why I chose this feat, it's bloody useless".
A DM should be able to give color to their world through their NPC's and the world around them. Use accents, give visuals and most importantly provide variety - "not more undead?!". The issue here is to know your monsters very well. The use of random encounters is really just a crutch for unprepared DM's. A good DM will have planned what they want you to face and has no need for a random encounter table. Such planning means you don't have to tweak stupid encounters. When using a pre-written module, don't be afraid to tweak it here and there if you feel the changes are more appropiate for your PC's. Experience and Monster knowledge is obviously the key to this. For instances where they have to face a particular monster, you will find that it's normally attached to the story of the module. As such, you should have ways for them to find out information about their final enemy so they can prepare accordingly. At least you are giving them a fair chance.
And finally, know your Players. If you know that a group of players likes more in-depth role play, give it to them. If another group is a bunch of munchkin power gamers, give them the combat and XP they crave. When mixing the two, lean more towards combat if you can help it. Using the above should help make it enjoyable for all if not quite as meaty for some. I normally run two campaigns, one for a small group of role players and the other that includes everyone in a more combat related game. Keeps everyone including me happy. However, just as you can have poor DM's, you can have poor players. The trick is to either train them into better players (normally the best option), give in and give them encounter after encounter or more simply, don't invite them at all.
Hopefully, I have shown you that it's not difficult to be a good DM, it just takes time, practice and most importantly preparation. This is why most situations that seemingly require patience really just require a prepared DM.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Gee.
Some of the most interesting combats I've seen are where the usual cycle of "hit it 'til it falls over" isn't possible. I've always found it encourages tactical creativity on the players' parts.
Whereupon the Wall sputters and dies... at least 7 rounds later. And meanwhile, the fiend is busy summoning in friends...
Darkness isn't much help... any concealment prevents sneak attacks. "Moderate darkness" is one quarter concealment, and it gets worse from there.
And it's better to tailor every encounter to the PC's strengths?
It depends on the opposition. If the PCs are escaping a Jurassic Park, the Paladin's Smite Evil isn't going to be of any use, but the Druid's spells that affect Beasts get a rare chance to come into play.
If the quest involves an army of undead, the Rogue's sneak attack is useless, but the Cleric has a field day.
If the BBEG has done his homework, he knows the PCs' common tactics, and has counters prepared. The PCs have to come up with something he hasn't seen before...
You know, I just discarded the first four responses I tried to type to that statement. It's probably best I leave it at that.
-Hyp.
If a situation developped in my game that rendered one PC useless I'd probably add something in - threat, enemy, chat partner - to occupy the player. I thought that was clear from my previous responses, but if someone wanted to hear it, fine.
Again, if people are having fun dealing with an almost-invulnerable crature, fine. If they don't, time to alter the scenario, offer them solutions etc.
Again, if people are having fun dealing with an almost-invulnerable crature, fine. If they don't, time to alter the scenario, offer them solutions etc.
diaglo said:
I used to have a GM who would spend the first four hours of each session playing computer games. He did it every damned Saturday.
I would show up at 2 pm as scheduled. The other players would have assembled by 3 pm (except for Tony, who took a fairly pragmatic view). Tonio would just sit playing with his blasted computer, occasionally asking onlookers to admire his play, until 6 or 6:30 pm.
I never could understand the mentality behind that behaviour.
Regards,
Agback
Rel
Liquid Awesome
How about we avoid the whole (IMHO somewhat condescending) "Here's how you can be a 'Good DM' and keep your players happy..." bit? If you will look in the DMG about planning encounters you'll see a couple different classifications including "Status Quo" and "Tailored Encounters". In other words, both are acknowledged as valid approaches and neither is always right or wrong.
Myself, I prefer things to lean a bit more toward Status Quo both when I'm playing and DMing. Right now I'm playing a Halfling Rogue who is a fairly typical "tumble-sneak attack monkey". We are about 4 sessions deep into a gods-foresaken temple infested with undead. My daggers sans-sneak attack are not terribly useful in this circumstance and neither is my high skill in Bluff, Sense Motive and Gather Information. Is it sometimes a little frustrating? Sure.
But that frustration is a sure sign that I'm being challenged. My challenge is to find a way to be as useful to the party as possible and try to complete our mission so we can get out of here and back to the lands where folks have functional kidneys waiting to be perforated.
I like being challenged. I like having to think outside the abilities that I'm best at and find ways to make my Tanglefoot Bags, Trip Attacks, Fighting Defensively and Quall's Feather Token: Tree be assets to the party. It's fun being frustrated sometimes. I feel a greater sense of accomplishment when I overcome those situations than in fixing a problem that was designed to be fixable by my best abilities.
YMMV
Myself, I prefer things to lean a bit more toward Status Quo both when I'm playing and DMing. Right now I'm playing a Halfling Rogue who is a fairly typical "tumble-sneak attack monkey". We are about 4 sessions deep into a gods-foresaken temple infested with undead. My daggers sans-sneak attack are not terribly useful in this circumstance and neither is my high skill in Bluff, Sense Motive and Gather Information. Is it sometimes a little frustrating? Sure.
But that frustration is a sure sign that I'm being challenged. My challenge is to find a way to be as useful to the party as possible and try to complete our mission so we can get out of here and back to the lands where folks have functional kidneys waiting to be perforated.
I like being challenged. I like having to think outside the abilities that I'm best at and find ways to make my Tanglefoot Bags, Trip Attacks, Fighting Defensively and Quall's Feather Token: Tree be assets to the party. It's fun being frustrated sometimes. I feel a greater sense of accomplishment when I overcome those situations than in fixing a problem that was designed to be fixable by my best abilities.
YMMV
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