D&D 3E/3.5 Some assistance/advice for my DM (3.5)

So, we started playing a 3.5e game a couple of weeks ago. Initially it was looking as if we'd be starting as Lv20 characters.

That would have been interesting, starting high and breaking into epic lvls possibly, something new for us.

Then when we got to actually starting, he said, "Okay, now make your characters at Lv1, the Lv20 versions were just so I could have an idea of what magic items to give out".

This felt like a very bad trick in a way, as more than one of our group struggles with the mechanical side of character building, so we spent a long time on characters, only to have them be nothing but 'wishes'.

Not to mention that there were a few revisions required because of mistakes in feat selection since we didn't have 'slots' to fill just 'X' feats to spend.

Now, exposition done, here is what I'm about:

How can I help our DM figure out how to deal with magic items? It sounds like he is struggling with how to dole out appropriate magic items successfully.

I think part of his problem is that D&D is not a system he is particularly used to, and the Magic Items lists might amount to 'information overload' to him.

He also has a thing where he doesn't just want to have 'magic item shops' in towns or something and I think I tried to tell him to 'turn the hunt to buy a specific item into a quest or quest chain' but I'm not sure it sunk in. Is there anything else you can suggest?

I agree that misleading the players like that is a bad idea. There's a level of trust needed at the table, and your DM just undercut his.

Another aspect to consider is that Prestige Classes are supposed to be "at the DM's discretion", meaning you talk about them in advance. Many DMs feel that they are like private clubs you're invited to join. Many have specific requirements specified that call for such an invitation, or else they describe a society of class members.

So laying out your character's intended career path gives the DM a chance to decide what opportunities should be made available to whom, and when.

Some here like to say "Failure to plan is planning to fail". I'm not that hard core myself, believing that a character's career choices can and should evolve organically based on the world the character is "growing up" in and the opportunities that world presents.

Still, if you build towards a particular PRC and it gets turned down, that's a bummer too.

Well, I can accept it, at least this time, as a miscommunication on his part. He didn't mean to lead us wrong exactly. He perhaps just worded it poorly and didn't properly explain himself.

I see what you're saying and yes some of the PrC do specifically state special requirements. After the 'reset to Lv1' thing I did point out specifically to the DM that two of the players' PrCs have special requirements that would need to be integrated into the game at some point. Specifically, he needs to think of something 'massive' enough to turn a paladin into a blackguard (which would have been well past done if we'd started at Lv 20) and a situation for a wizard to contact a fire elemental for the Elemental Savant PrC requirement.

I understand what you are saying about evolving organically. In an ideal world, I'd like for that to happen too. Unfortunately in a few case, if one doesn't plan specifically for the PrC, they'll never mean the requirements.

On the plus side, our group is extremely laid back in terms of power gaming, or "optimization"... In general, I'm considered the closest thing because I like playing casters, and I usually mostly play evocation preferenced (not specialized) wizards, or once a Psion(Kineticist). Also because I actually always DO build towards a specific build path, even something as simple as the Scythe user I was making before (I have a thread about that on here). But even I am agog at some of the power builds I've seen online.

Still, I digress. The point is to find a way to make the DM's job a little easier in how to handle magic items, ensuring we get the ones that are most helpful to our class, or at least the ones we might prefer. I thought about a 'master list' of items that could be a starting point for any character, and then maybe branching out with suggestions per character. We can't MAKE our magical items, because he doesn't like using XP in favor of a 'milestone' system.

If he's worried about giving out the proper magic items, I would just tell everyone that they have the Ancestral Relic feat for free (BoED) and that it applies to all your gear.

The problem with D&D, to some degree, is that it assumes you can go and buy your gear in town and that you're going to regularly be swapping item X for item Y because Y has an extra +1 on it.

By essentially letting all the characters magick up their own gear, this would take all the work about gear placement off the DM and let characters/players get more attached to their items. Knowing that you're going to sell your +1 greatsword and use it to pay for your +2 greatsword really doesn't make it feel like a weapon worthy of song. But staying with that same sword from 1 to 20, now that's a hero's weapon!

Soultpp said:

Then when we got to actually starting, he said, "Okay, now make your characters at Lv1, the Lv20 versions were just so I could have an idea of what magic items to give out".

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Ouch. I'd hate that sort of bait and switch - it's not a deal breaker, but that would be a major red flag.

How can I help our DM figure out how to deal with magic items? It sounds like he is struggling with how to dole out appropriate magic items successfully.

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There are several options:

Possibly the best is just to give out whatever items and/or treasure seems appropriate, stick reasonably close to "wealth per level", but let people buy/sell magic items in town to get the items they want. With experienced 3.5e players, this would probably be my preferred option - but does mean having some sort of "magic item shop" arrangement (even if you handwave it a bit).

My least-preferred option would be to take the item lists from those 20th level characters and gradually seed those items in the campaign - have the PCs "just happen" to find the items that the players have chosen for their characters. You'd probably need some sort of interim items, but that's not too bad - just have the PCs periodically hit with items being sundered or otherwise broken or depowered.

But my preferred option, especially with players who are not too familiar with 3.5e, is just not to worry about it - use the random magic item tables in the DMG to populate hoards, and keep half an eye on how those treasures tie up with the WbL table. (But if PCs can't buy/sell items I'd suggest being a bit more generous with treasure than the WbL table suggests - since characters can't get exactly the item they want, they'll get a bit less bang for their buck. So give them a bit more 'buck' to get the right amount of 'bang'.)

One last thing: despite 3.5e's veneer, it's actually a lot less well-balanced than it pretends. Amongst other things, that means the DM shouldn't obsess about giving the 'right' amount of gear - it's not like that will be the difference between a balanced game and a broken one!

I'll keep all the advice in mind and maybe mention/remind him that the WbL/treasure tables assumes a certain level of commercial changeability between 'found treasure' and 'desired gear'. Admittedly, if I were playing a fighting type I might try to place more value on a hard won weapon than just a randomly purchased one, but that pre-supposes a certain level of role playing in the game that isn't always there and isn't particularly represented by the mechanics in any way.

The problem is also partly the way he deals with level advancement. The WbL table also pre-supposes a certain quantity of encounters before leveling. Assuming they were all CR 1 and a standard group of 4, that's 14 separate instances of gaining XP and by extension treasure to reach Lvl 2. Now the true numbers are much more likely to be higher with fractional CR monsters mixed in so the actual number of chances would be more likely within the range of 14-112 (Though fighting nothing BUT 1/8 CR monsters would be tedious.)

His method of milestone level advancement is FAR faster than this. We had one encounter with about 28 kobolds (and some NPCs with bows helping us) and that was Lv2. No treasure from that fight though. Our second fight (and 2nd week of actual play) was again a swarm of 20-30 kobolds but this time with a 'mini-ogre' or something (his description was vague enough that I couldn't pin down what it was.) and although we didn't level again, our 'loot' was 25 GP and three vials of magical dust or something (which my character found and pocketed.) Certainly nothing worth 3600 GP yet (4 characters at Lvl 2 by WbL table). From my impression, we'll have at most 1-3 more encounters before Lv 3 and we'll not likely see the 10,800 GP that the WbL table says we should in that time.

Well, I'll see how things go I guess, and remind him of the WbL table. Some 'wealth' that is expensive is also somewhat intangible though, like Inherent bonuses. Should they be valued exclusively by the cost per +1 of the tomes/manuals? (27,500GP per) If so, then it would be prohibitive to even see a +1 until the mid-teens because taking them much sooner could gimp your gear by a lot.