Planescape Casting off Planescape

Igwilly · Jan 1, 2017

Well, let’s see the problem…

I’m just learning AD&D 2e; I’m really enjoying it. I plan to use my personal setting in the next game.
Honestly, I can see that 2e encouraged lots of world building and setting material. The variety of campaign sourcebooks amazes me, and I’m already choosing favorites. But there is one setting that I don’t like. Actually, I actively hate the setting. The setting. Planescape.
I’ll not say why I hate it, neither will I discuss about this. Despite all the world-building, I always got that impression, that AD&D 2e effectively uses Planescape all the time. At least for published material. I would say that 2e had one setting, because every other setting was a Planescape’s sub-setting.
But that’s not what I’m looking for. Right now, I plan to “translate” my cosmos. Use material of my own, but also using published material, adapted to my game. I plan to remodel the game’s cosmology and create many new monsters.
The question is: How hard is that? I know I can do that in every edition, but in some it’s harder than others. Sometimes the system fights against you in that regard. All editions do say that I can freely change rules to my taste. But what problems would arise if I reject Planescape entirely? I found a section in the Monstrous Manual about creating monsters, but if there’s anywhere else to look for, I would be glad to know.
There are some other issues which I need to resolve, but let’s talk about this later.

Ranes · Jan 1, 2017

Second edition was around for years before Planescape reared its head. Just do what I did when I played 2e and ignore it completely. It won't have any effect on your game at all. Zero.

I no longer own any 2e stuff, so I can't help you on monster creation guides.

Maxperson · Jan 1, 2017

No setting is required. In order for Planescape to apply to your game, you'd have to opt to add it in.

Igwilly · Jan 1, 2017

I'm just worried about replacing the Great Wheel Cosmology. I thought that this would impact the game, somehow. One of the biggest reasons I loved the 3e Manual of the Planes was the ability to create your own cosmology.

cbwjm · Jan 1, 2017

Nah, they had other cosmologies depending on the setting which they later merged with planescape. You can completely ignore planescape if you wish and just model your cosmology as you like, all it really did was expand on the planar system from 1e.

Continuing on, depending on what you want, you can completely do away with the great wheel. All you need is a plane for each of the outer planar creatures, but even that doesn't have to be separate. Instead of the Nine Hells and the Abyss, the devils and demons could all inhabit a single plane of existence perhaps on different layers with a layer in between that is the main fighting ground for the blood war. You could have it similar to 4e with the Astral plane the home of the gods, angels, devils, and demons; the prime material for us mortals; and the elemental chaos for the anything related to the elements. None of this will be an issue in 2e.

Shayuri · Jan 2, 2017

In purely mechanical terms there doesn't even need to be a blood war. If you want to completely decouple planar creatures from, say, Law/Order, you could wiff modrons and slaad into oblivion and just say that 'demons and devils' and 'archons and angels' are all collapsed into just 'fiends and celestials.' Maybe excise a few of each list, just to keep things manageable and reduce overlap (eryines and succubi, I'm looking at you).

Despite the influence the success of Planescape had on later iterations of 2nd Edition, the planes aren't really tightly woven into the core rules. There's plenty of room to change how they work with just a bit of thought into how those changes interact with Commune With Other Plane, Planeshift and Gate, and various Summoning spells; the main ways that PCs can interact with the other planes aside from GM intervention.

cmad1977 · Jan 2, 2017

Not hard. You can totally use your own stuff.

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cbwjm · Jan 2, 2017

[MENTION=6801225]Igwilly[/MENTION] So, what kind of idea do you have in mind for your cosmology?

Maxperson · Jan 2, 2017

If I were going to create a cosmology, I'd do something similar to this. An upper(Heaven) and lower(Hell) plane. The upper plane would contain all the good aligned planar creatures, the lower the evil ones. They would be divided into realms, kingdoms, fiefdoms, and "wild" areas with no ruler. I'd create cities where the creatures of various alignments intermix and trade. In MY version, I'd keep the blood war, so there'd be no intermixing of demons and devils, but OP probably doesn't like the war.

I'd get rid of the elemental planes altogether, making elementals the equivalent of neutral "animals" and denizens of both the upper and lower planes. Fire elementals would be lower plane only, and air upper plane only. Water and earth would be found on both.

I'd keep the astral and ethereal planes since those are among my favorites, and of course the demiplanes would be kept as part of the ethereal plane.

I'm sure I'd come up with more, but that's a start.

Igwilly · Jan 2, 2017

Not quite sure. I’m divided between a bigger, more complex thing, and a much simpler cosmos.
The first option is not finished; I need to refine the connections and role of each plane, but will include: Material(s), Spirit World, Places for aligned creatures (but different than the Great Wheel), Place for elementals (perhaps Elemental Chaos or countless minor elemental planes), Shadow Plane, Plane of Mirrors, some “Temporal Plane”, Plane of Electro-Magnetism (just to make a point, part of the elemental planes), Feywild, Far Realm and other Phrenic Planes, Demiplanes. Not sure about Material’s astronomy. But I’m waiting to read more books about the edition.
The other option is: since my campaign will be about time travel, have as few planes as possible. This could be achieved with just one plane besides the Prime Material: the Otherworld, where all extra-planar things are, or perhaps the Spirit World, and perhaps the Temporal Plane too. This would reduce my work and allow me to focus more on time-travel than the planes themselves.