D&D 5E 5E skills and the Perception vs Stealth imbalance

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WarpedAcorn

First Post

• Jan 5, 2017

• #51

CapnZapp said:

I dislike how guards can't actually do anything before the ambush is sprung (why post guards?).

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If I am on guard and I spot something, be it a noise in the distance or seeing a threat (although being Human with a Campfire/Light Cantrip it would only be within 40ft), I raise the alarm to wake people up. While this does not provide the group with time to prepare, it does prevent the attackers from getting a Surprise round against "Unconscious" targets (which is devastating).

 

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Horwath

Legend

• Jan 5, 2017

• #52

Also a good trick for guards in the wilderness.

Find a spot out side of camp for your best concealment, take the standard rope, tie it around one of the sleeping characters wrist so you can wake him up quietly from your hiding spot while your are outside of camp and maybe get an ambush on the ambushers. If you see them 60ft ahead and your are 50ft infront of the camp that gives your crew in camp 3-4 rounds(30ft speed) to get ready in quiet fashion while ambushers still think that they are not detected.

 

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Motorskills

Explorer

• Jan 5, 2017

• #53

Shirioken said:

You are interpreting Stealth, a set of rules deliberately designed to be vague (in order to allow DMs to interpret it as they desire)

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Well the fact that much of the game revolves around sneaking around and ambushing folks....to have Stealth / Perception / Surprise RAW that don't work seamlessly is competely nutso to me.

 

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Corwin

Explorer

• Jan 5, 2017

• #54

Motorskills said:

Well the fact that much of the game revolves around sneaking around and ambushing folks....to have Stealth / Perception / Surprise RAW that don't work seamlessly is competely nutso to me.

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Work seamlessly? Well there's your problem right there. When has that ever been possible in something as nuanced, and varied in how it is engaged, as a TTRPG system?

 

Edwin Suijkerbuijk

Explorer

• Jan 5, 2017

• #55

when it comes to monsters setting up a ambush even during daylight keep in mind you can't spot what you can't see.
So you can't spot a enemy that is in full cover, you can still hear them but if they are trying to be silent the sounds they make would travel a lot less far then line of sight.
this would decrease the encounter distance.

 

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Shiroiken

Legend

• Jan 6, 2017

• #56

CapnZapp said:

What does this tell you about the rules as written?

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That they are deliberately designed to be vague in order to allow DMs to interpret the rules as best they see fit.

A big part of your problem (as noted by your reply to my previous comment) is not Perception vs. Stealth, but that the PCs are generally better than monsters. Obviously you need to houserule things to achieve your desired playstyle. There is nothing wrong with this, but you have to understand the stealth rules generally work fine for most groups.

 

Emirikol

Adventurer

• Jan 6, 2017

• #57

I've just been ramping up monster stealth if necessary with circumstance bonuses.

 

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Shiroiken

Legend

• Jan 6, 2017

• #58

Motorskills said:

Well the fact that much of the game revolves around sneaking around and ambushing folks....to have Stealth / Perception / Surprise RAW that don't work seamlessly is competely nutso to me.

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Kinda agree with you, BUT there are too many different views on how Stealth needs to work. 5E is supposed to be good for as many people as possible, and if they had concise rules, a large chunk of players/dms would be unhappy with them (I remember quite a bit of bitching during the playtest).

 

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pemerton

Legend

• Jan 6, 2017

• #59

Corwin said:

Work seamlessly? Well there's your problem right there. When has that ever been possible in something as nuanced, and varied in how it is engaged, as a TTRPG system?

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I've not had any issues with the Stealth rules in Burning Wheel. They're pretty seamless.
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION], putting to one side what the various bonuses should be, you seem to want a situation where a single DEX vs WIS check can produce various outcomes - ambush! (even the guard), ambush (only the guard is not surprised), no ambush (the guard sees what's up and wakes everyone up).

You don't seem interested in handling this as a matter of framing the stakes of the check. So you probably want a "degree of failure" thing - if the would-be ambushers succeed vs the guard, it's ambush! time; if they fail but by 5 or less then they surprise everyone but the guard, and if they fail by more than 5 then the guard can wake everyone up.

 

C

Corwin

Explorer

• Jan 6, 2017

• #60

pemerton said:

I've not had any issues with the Stealth rules in Burning Wheel. They're pretty seamless.

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Awesome. Sounds just like me and how I haven't had any issues with the Stealth rules in 5e at my table. Or were you trying to imply that you are speaking for everyone who plays BW, and that *no one* has had any issues with those Stealth rules? I certainly hope that wasn't what you were trying to do.