5E Would this fix Champion? - Page 7
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by jaelis View Post
    I don't either. But if you insist on presenting your opinions as if they were facts, then people have a right to dispute those facts.
    It is a fact, previously proven by math in this thread, that the Champion does less white room damage than the Battle Master. It is my opinion that this needs to be changed for my game and group.

    As far as I can tell, your opinion is that it doesn't matter to you and you are fine with things the way they are. That's fine for you and your games.

    If you would like to refute my facts, please feel free to do the math and show me how I am wrong.
    Otherwise you are just attempting to tell people that their opinions are wrong.

  2. #62
    I will admit that sometimes I get tired of the "5E is broken because ..." threads and could have stated my question more clearly.

    How about this: what's wrong with the Champion fighter and why does it need to be changed? Why not just play one of the other variants?

    So let's talk about some of your concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    Well the problem that I am personally having (not speaking for anyone else in this thread) is that the Champion and Battle Master are just representations of the 2E and 4E Fighters respectively. It seems they entirely left out the 3E Fighter gameplay style. Where you had always available combat options by having a bunch of combat feats to tailor your Fighter. I would love a Champion style fighter (no to little resource management) but with decisions to actually make in combat.
    What can I say? I guess I simply disagree with a caveat. Builds in 5E are quite front loaded, in some ways even more so than previous editions.

    But flexibility? Hmm...well backgrounds can give me things that aren't typical fighter. Party doesn't have a rogue? Get lockpicking from a background.

    Then you have the basic choices: strength vs dex, melee vs range, shield or no shield. Heck, I've seen a fighter that was mostly wisdom based that took a feat so he could use shillellegh to be effective in combat (he later multiclassed into cleric).

    We have less "feat tax" in 5E than in 3.5 and feats are more significant. So do we have less feats? Yes. But I also don't feel compelled to take expertise or specialization just to do what should have been given to me as part of my class.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    ...
    This is all reinforced by Mike Mearls himself from the Tome Show interview below:

    https://merricb.com/2015/08/02/mike-...how-interview/.
    My takeaway from the interview was not that he was dissapointed in the fighter classes, but that he thought they could have come up with a better more evocative name.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    ...

    This is all ignoring the fact that the Champion is mechanically sub par at the only thing it can actually do, damage. I don't think Wizards did that on purpose and I'm assuming the Champion was created during the playtest when critical hits were max damage plus extra damage die and were never looked at again when the rule was changed.
    I'll be honest that I don't really care too much about DPR. The analysis that I've skimmed suggests that the difference is minimal, varies by level, feats and ultimately amounts to a point or two of damage while getting better defenses. Crunch the numbers in slightly different ways and you get different answers.

    If you want to get more damage you could always do a dex based champion and throw in a few levels of rogue. The sneak attack damage dice get doubled with crits, which you'll be doing more often as a champion. NOTE: I'm sure there's something that doesn't work with this build that would still fall a point or two behind some other build or otherwise break down. I don't care enough to come up with a better example.

    I do sometimes miss Brogg the 3.5 chain fighter who took a couple of levels of cleric so that he could enlarge himself and knock down most enemies on the board. But I'm sure if I wanted to I could make something equally cheesy with a reach weapon and a feat or two.

    So to have a real discussion about this you'd have to go deep into the math, come up with examples and counter examples, build vs build. While you're at it, throw in some playtests so a few thousand people can kick around your ideas.

    I think that the very fact that WOTC hasn't released much in the way of a new type of fighter in published materials or unearthed arcana suggests that most people like the champion fighter just fine.

    And if you don't like the champion, there are plenty of other options.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronOfBarbaria View Post
    The only person that I have seen make an attempt to "silence" anyone is those calling it "bullying" for those of us that think the champion is fine as-is, and thus disagree that what you have stated as fact, that the champion needs a fix, is
    actually a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronOfBarbaria View Post
    ...and when you consider that WotC are doing their best to listen to community opinion and shape the game to match it, it seems really important to make sure that the actual opinion of the community at large is available for anyone that happens to come looking.
    I don't mean to be crude, but in this context it reads as "We need to make sure to crap all over the threads of people who have these opinions. We can't let them have their own opinions. Ours are better!"

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    I'll be honest that I don't really care too much about DPR. The analysis that I've skimmed suggests that the difference is minimal, varies by level, feats and ultimately amounts to a point or two of damage while getting better defenses. Crunch the numbers in slightly different ways and you get different answers.
    The issue with many previous comparisons is that they use all sorts of ancillary systems to judge the power of the subclasses. When comparing damage form extra critical hits with damage from Superiority Dice, you shouldn't add in races, feats, and multiclassing. There is no way to know if the Half-Orc race, Feats, or Multiclassing are options in someone's game. Even if they are, you can't just have one type of Champion Fighter that is competitive. I guess everyone needs to play the Half-Orc Great Weapon Master Barbarian/Champion Fighter otherwise too bad for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    So to have a real discussion about this you'd have to go deep into the math, come up with examples and counter examples, build vs build. While you're at it, throw in some playtests so a few thousand people can kick around your ideas.
    I think this is the true discussion that needs started for people that are having difficulty in the game. In addition, I think this isn't happening currently because the homebrew forum is part of the main 5E forum here. When someone discusses an issue, many times they get yelled at and are told they are wrong instead of helping them make some homebrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    I think that the very fact that WOTC hasn't released much in the way of a new type of fighter in published materials or unearthed arcana suggests that most people like the champion fighter just fine.
    They have went all over the place with the Fighter subclasses. Originally it was Battle Master Light ones (Cavalier, Scout, Monster Hunter) and now they are just making up entirely new mechanics (Knight, Arcane Archer, Samurai) because they can't expand on their old ones like all of the other Classes subclasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oofta View Post
    And if you don't like the champion, there are plenty of other options.
    That why we need to create them together! Some new options and ideas!
    Last edited by DaedalusX51; Wednesday, 11th January, 2017 at 09:12 PM. Reason: typos

  5. #65
    My houserule: +1 max HP per level.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    It is a fact, previously proven by math in this thread, that the Champion does less white room damage than the Battle Master [for the typical encounter structure used in my group]. It is my opinion that this needs to be changed for my game and group.
    Great, it is nice to see you say what you really mean. With the bit of specificity I added, I'm happy to grant you your fact and to acknowledge your opinion.

    Had the OP written something like this I think he would have gotten more constructive responses.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    It is a fact, previously proven by math in this thread, that the Champion does less white room damage than the Battle Master.
    For the very specific white room parameters you set. But this claim is not universally true because those white room parameters constantly change. So your "math" is hardly universally true. Only for a set of specific parameters. That doesn't prove much, because the game is not played with only that set of parameters. Is it valuable information? Yes, but so are the other parameters that can occur in game play (like extended combats between short rests where the champion is better).



    If you would like to refute my facts, please feel free to do the math and show me how I am wrong.

    Did that already. Several times. Here are your "facts" that aren't actual facts and aren't true, as I have shown earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    It seems they entirely left out the 3E Fighter gameplay style. Where you had always available combat options by having a bunch of combat feats to tailor your Fighter

    This is all ignoring the fact that the Champion is mechanically sub par at the only thing it can actually do, damage
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    Well you can make it not be incompetent at its only job.

    And here is the irony:

    Otherwise you are just attempting to tell people that their opinions are wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    I don't mean to be crude, but in this context it reads as "We need to make sure to crap all over the threads of people who have these opinions. We can't let them have their own opinions. Ours are better!"
    because of:

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    They already know that they want to change something, either hop on board and help them do it or keep walking.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusX51 View Post
    So this is just you bullying me.
    .

    Because everything you're complaining about, you are the one engaging in it, including sending me a PM telling me I need to seek a professional counselor for me and my family. So to be frank, you can stop trying to play the victim when it's you who is engaging in the worst behavior.
    Last edited by Sacrosanct; Wednesday, 11th January, 2017 at 09:21 PM.

  8. #68
    I'm tired of trying to persuade people to see it my way. I give in. I mean its not that big a deal. ok my champ will even be better than the God he is now. No worries.

    Ok the Champ is underpowered! Fix me! Give me Mo crit! Give me MO Bang! I want some Flash!

    What about a extra Action surge? I like that idea let me tell YOU!

    What about letting me get 150% my strength bonus to damage like the older editions?

    What about A extra feat?

    What about Advantage on a Great weapon swing on the first round?


    Overpower me! It's friggin my turn anyway yo! You see those Barbs and Wack Pallies? Give me Mo Powa!

    What about let me dual wield two handed weapons? Come on it would look KEWL!

    This needs to be a THANG!

    CHAMP IS A CHUMP WOTC FIX ME! I FEEL SO BROKE! GIVE ME STUFF TA MAKE ME BETTA!

    Man that was Good!
    CHAMP NOT CHUMP- FIX US NOW!

    I mean go with the flow right? I feel so broken I can't even kill a Kobold with droppin!
    Last edited by GameOgre; Wednesday, 11th January, 2017 at 09:32 PM.
    Laugh DaedalusX51 laughed with this post

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrosanct View Post
    For the very specific white room parameters you set. But his claim is not universally true because those white room parameters constantly change. So your "math" is hardly universally true. Only for a set of specific parameters. That doesn't prove much, because the game is not played with only that set of parameters.
    Any excess damage or bad situations would apply the same to both the Champion and the Battle Master. In fact the Battle Master, due to the nature of choosing when to use the maneuvers, is actually better off to handle those situations than the Champion. If I am incorrect please show me otherwise with examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrosanct View Post
    Did that already. Several times. Here are your "facts" that aren't actual facts and aren't true, as I have shown earlier:

    And here is the irony:

    because of:

    Because everything you're complaining about, you are the one engaging in it, including sending me a PM telling me I need to seek a professional counselor for me and my family. So to be frank, you can stop trying to play the victim when it's you who is engaging in the worst behavior.
    You have been ignoring the majority of my posts and only engaging in commenting on what is best for your agenda. I PMed you because I felt that discussing this in the thread is counterproductive and rude.

    What I said was "Dude at this point you should probably stop harassing me and actually discuss what I am saying in these posts instead of being a jerk. If you can't see that you are currently doing that then I would ask you to please seek the counsel of your friends, family, or even a counselor."

    Which is entirely appropriate. If you do not realize you are being rude and out of line, it is best to ask other people if you are being close minded. If I am coming across as rude, I haven't meant that in the slightest. I have been attempting to have a discussion on something that I believe needs to be constructively discussed, and I feel that you are just trying to ruin that discussion.

  10. #70
    I did not expect this thread to blow up. I immediately regret my decision.
    Laugh DaedalusX51 laughed with this post

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