Kobold Avenger
Legend
5e without a doubt is better than 4e, and I say this as someone who was quite into 2e's Campaign Settings. 4e tried to throw the baby out with the bath water with many things including the fluff.
D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e
MechaTarrasque
Hero
One thing that I both liked and disliked about 4e is that the universe is remarkably dark, more so than even Ravenloft, but almost no one ever seems to notice. Most of the universe is the elemental chaos, which is basically populated by CE types, except for the Abyss which is populated by extra evil CE types. Then you have the Astral Sea, which has as many Evil (formerly known as LE and NE) types as the rest of the alignments (which includes as many CE types as either good types). All that stands between the world being completely destroyed are the primal spirits and the fact the evil guys are all engaged in a convoluted WWE soap opera so they don't have time to snuff it out (as soon as I beat my archenemy, my other archenemy, and my best frenemy (and my best frememy's archenemy), I will get around to destroying the world).
Speaking of that, one thing I really liked about 4e is that if you binge watched a couple of years of WWE programming, everything about 4e made sense.
Speaking of that, one thing I really liked about 4e is that if you binge watched a couple of years of WWE programming, everything about 4e made sense.
*Fixed*
Something may have been lost in the translation. Probably best for everybody!
But in retrospect ... "fluff tastes ..."
Fluffernutter! There we go. Good, wholesome, fluffernutter.
I still have a point.
Imaro
Legend
I think you hit a big chunk of it on the head... at least for me... Sword and sorcery, weird fantasy, etc. are rarely what I would categorize as coherent. Personally I enjoy D&D the most when it's that messy hodgepodge feeling of never knowing what to expect on an adventure or through a portal or even with a creature you've probably heard of in real world mythology... I enjoy my D&D to have a grounded (at least at low levels), cryptic, Heavy Metal (Though in all honesty it's more Hip Hop for me... think Samurai Champloo) feel, and 2e, 3.5 and 5e D&D lore felt like that to me. I also think I may be one of the few people who also enjoyed the dichotomy of the 9 point alignment system where not only were the powers of Good and Evil an active force but also those of Chaos and Law... I liked that 4e introduced unaligned but hating the simplistic reduction of the other alignments.
With 4e it was like reading a classical mythology book that had been slightly tweaked and given a fresh coat of paint... but was still essentially greek mythology with some high fantasy considerations thrown in. It was ok but it just didn't evoke the same curiosity to read up on it or hit me with the same sense of wonder when reading over it. In a way it felt sterile, clean and not a little predictable. I also don't think it helped any that it was scattered across not just numerous books but numerous products as well.
L
lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
Twiggly the Gnome
Legend
I hope they keep the Noble Eladrins in the feywild, and give their place in the celestial hierarchy to the Asuras.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
I can dig it, man; I also like the 9 point system, even though 4E morality is closer to my views of actual reality, largely because of the complex absurdity of the whole thing.
MechaTarrasque
Hero
The DMG says there are elves that are celestials living in Arborea (and dwarves who are celestials in Arcadia). I find it a little anticlimactic to have the PC's go to all the effort to get to the Outer Planes and fight...elves. [Of course, that was the way it was with Bytopia and gnomes forever and in 5e with orcs/goblinoids and Chernoggar (and in Archeron before 4e).] Still, like my earlier suggestion about deity-specific templates for angels, making plane-specific NPC classes would go along way to add some spice to that situation.
I would also suggest plane-linked PC subclasses, but I think that would cause some people's heads to explode.....
I really, really liked the 4E background, and fluff, as compared to earlier versions. The whole points of Light and Dawn War concepts fitted really well into my homebrew world that I've used since 1E. It didn't take much tweaking to fit it all in.
I also liked the way 4es background would have call outs to classic D&D ideas and tropes, but at the same time not feel constrained by them, in the way 5es does. I've never really felt that D&D had that much of a set background really, (and have been really surprised by people's response to 4es background) usually playing in homebrew worlds rather than the Realms or wherever. It's one of the games great strengths that it isn't tied to one world or background. It's not as generic as GURPs, or as defined by its world as Runequest or WHFRP.
I liked both the Great Wheel, and the World Axis cosmologies, and used both - as you're dealing with Metaphysical Locations based on myth or belief or a physical/geographical/extraplanar representation of Alignment there's no reason why both systems can't simultaneously exist - the 9 Hells can be both part of the Lower Planes, and be a Divine Realm in the Astral Sea. It's all Belief driven, so it doesn't need to make sense, in fact, it's better if it doesn't, so to feel more unworldly. It's all Ineffable. (That all sounded a lot more pretentious than I meant it to.
) I did miss the Classic Alignment system in 4E. Daft though Alignment is, it is a major part of how I see D&D. It was interesting that late in the peace, one of the Designers did admit that removing the Classic Alignment from 4E was a mistake as it's such an Icon of the game. Another nice touch in 4E was how easy it was to visit the other planes - gateways were very common, and often the other Planes were strange, but not too strange. It was the idea of what the point of having all these interesting locations to adventure in, if you can't then get to them.
I did prefer the Elemental Chaos to the four Elemental planes - I always had a soft spot for the Para Elements over the normal ones, and making it so they were more of the standard elemental over the basic ones was great. Tying it all to the Primordials, and Titans was also fantastic. The 4E version of Giants was much more interesting than the current Ording idea, but it doesn't take much t use both at once. I vaguely plan to run either Storm Kings Thunder or Against the Giants, and can fold in both Backgrounds easily.
Oh, and Star Spawn, Foulspawn and the Stars being malevolent entities (the Stars Look Down in Hatred.....) was fantastic and as creepy as heck. Interesting that Mike Mearles seem to think the same : http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/19/if-spelljammer-5e/
I also liked the way 4es background would have call outs to classic D&D ideas and tropes, but at the same time not feel constrained by them, in the way 5es does. I've never really felt that D&D had that much of a set background really, (and have been really surprised by people's response to 4es background) usually playing in homebrew worlds rather than the Realms or wherever. It's one of the games great strengths that it isn't tied to one world or background. It's not as generic as GURPs, or as defined by its world as Runequest or WHFRP.
I liked both the Great Wheel, and the World Axis cosmologies, and used both - as you're dealing with Metaphysical Locations based on myth or belief or a physical/geographical/extraplanar representation of Alignment there's no reason why both systems can't simultaneously exist - the 9 Hells can be both part of the Lower Planes, and be a Divine Realm in the Astral Sea. It's all Belief driven, so it doesn't need to make sense, in fact, it's better if it doesn't, so to feel more unworldly. It's all Ineffable. (That all sounded a lot more pretentious than I meant it to.
) I did miss the Classic Alignment system in 4E. Daft though Alignment is, it is a major part of how I see D&D. It was interesting that late in the peace, one of the Designers did admit that removing the Classic Alignment from 4E was a mistake as it's such an Icon of the game. Another nice touch in 4E was how easy it was to visit the other planes - gateways were very common, and often the other Planes were strange, but not too strange. It was the idea of what the point of having all these interesting locations to adventure in, if you can't then get to them.I did prefer the Elemental Chaos to the four Elemental planes - I always had a soft spot for the Para Elements over the normal ones, and making it so they were more of the standard elemental over the basic ones was great. Tying it all to the Primordials, and Titans was also fantastic. The 4E version of Giants was much more interesting than the current Ording idea, but it doesn't take much t use both at once. I vaguely plan to run either Storm Kings Thunder or Against the Giants, and can fold in both Backgrounds easily.
Oh, and Star Spawn, Foulspawn and the Stars being malevolent entities (the Stars Look Down in Hatred.....) was fantastic and as creepy as heck. Interesting that Mike Mearles seem to think the same : http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/19/if-spelljammer-5e/
transtemporal
Explorer
4e was dead to me the moment they introduced humanoid thri kreen in Dark Sun.
