D&D 5th Edition UA and depth of complexity - Page 15
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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsetaker View Post
    Sorry but that is a cop out answer. I'm not a game designer and I don't have a lot of time to create my own stuff. How about give an actual legitimate reason why you can't stick with the options you want and let me have more options that I can choose from. So because you don't like a certain flavour that means I can't have it?
    No, but the other side of that is that just because you want that flavour, the brand-name manufacturer is not obliged to provide it to you.
    They are going to look at who wants that flavour, collect opinions both for and against, and decide whether making that flavour of ice cream is going to lead to more profit than spending the resources required making a different flavour of milkshake.

    The good news however is that even if the manufacturer never makes that flavour of ice-cream that you're after, the shop may still stock it as an off-brand product from a more independent manufacturer. It will be home-made, so there is less guarantee of quality, but you might still like it more than the brand-name stuff. And its probably cheaper and more responsive to customer suggestions as well.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronOfBarbaria View Post
    Sometimes, not all the times of course, people asking for something to be done for them because they aren't a game designer, sounds a lot like the following, to use the ice cream analogy:

    Customer A: "I want Neapolitan ice cream. Why does this shop refuse to sell it to me?"
    Customer B: "Um... they've got vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry, why not just put those together in a bowl?
    Customer A: "I'm not an ice cream maker, I don't have time for that. Why won't you let me get the flavor I like and just not eat it if you don't like it?"

    Personally, and maybe I'm biased because I am a game designer, it's a huge pet peeve of mine when I hear people say they aren't a game designer and don't have time or the energy to create what they want, but spend hours a day on a message board insisting on going after game designers as not knowing what they're doing or constantly complaining about how they aren't getting what their individual preference is.

    It's somewhat maddening.

  3. #143
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    In fact, CaptZapp, you've spend a lot of time and effort creating discussion around those elements you find lacking the game. Obviously you're passionate about it. So have you put them up on the DMs Guild for other people to benefit from all this time and work you've put in?

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    Actually, there could be made an argument that power creep is already killing 5e: it seems monsters and NPCs can't cope with character equipped with feats, magic items and multiclassing.
    Two out of three of which anyone that plays D&D is going to expect to see, and one of which has been around (as you note) since 2000 and exist in prototype forms in Dragon Magazine (trading WP's for maneuvers for example) for far longer than that.

    The argument "all that's optional, don't use it if your players break the game" is nonsense. Feats and multiclassing has been part of the game since 2000. If the game gives you options you can't use, those options are worthless.
    Agreed.

    (And for the love of Vecna, if your trigger response is "I don't have any problem with the MM" you don't have to purchase this product)
    I'm pretty much devoted to 3e for the foreseeable future because I'm not going to rip out a rules system in the middle of a campaign, least of all if I've been tweaking the rulesystem this extensively. But while I was impressed by elements of the 5e design, the monster manual was a complete non-starter. It was like a reverse 4e to me. In 4e, the monster manual was about the only rulebook I thought was well done. You don't have to go to the extent of 4e to create a tactical grid based skirmish game, but even in 1e or 3e, unique powers for a monster was what made it really interesting. More to the point, the 5e team stripped out all the non-combat interest in the monster as NPCs capable of intrigue and plots. I suppose DMs were just supposed to assume out of combat NPCs could have power of plot. Plus, I was really disappointed to find that we had yet another edition that had meaningless number inflation. And it would appear from the complaints that they'll need another half-edition with number inflation to let the monsters catch up.

    As far as your other complaints go, they are largely in one of two forms:

    a) Better balance. I mentioned earlier that it doesn't matter how many classes (or dials) your system has in character creation. It only matters how many of them or of a competitive tier. It sounds like that part of your problem is that you are immediately discarding all classes or archetypes that don't offer the same oomph. Better balance, which is what the majority of your complaints address, is an addressable problem - and you don't necessarily have to use an half-edition with errata to do it if the problems are fairly small. You can fix this with the dials by providing new options on the dial (most likely feats) that support weak archetypes. You can also provide strictly better versions of the same archetype. You could even reuse the name, forming a sort of official errata.

    b) "I really like system mastery" Part of me wants to be really unsympathetic to this just because it isn't my thing, and as I tried to point out earlier, the most important character variation I care about is background and narrative. Two mechanically similar characters can have very different stories and experiences. Mechanical variation to me only exists to serve that end. But, being a DM whose has and has had many different players with many different aesthetic goals, I know that there are a lot of players like you for which the CharGen mini-game is one of the most engrossing parts of playing an RPG. I have a player now that is all the time building future characters out of my system and trying to break it. It's what he does. And I've got rather bad news for you here. There isn't room. The designers have already implemented 'something new at every level' for their classes. They've got an elegant but fragile design, which as you point out is being stretched even by the few dials that they provide you with (naturally, you used them all which I would have absolutely expected; so would I, but for different reasons).

    One of the things about 3e is that the disparity in classes left lots of space for depth of complexity. It was a flaw that could be leveraged as a strength. Wizards already had tons of depth of complexity just choosing and acquiring spells, where as the fighter had too little because they hadn't been nearly aggressive enough in providing bonus feats and had been overly conservative regarding feat chains (meaning, the more feats a feat has as a prerequisite, the more outlandishly powerful it needs to be). So they had plenty of room to play with the dials right from the start, and plenty of dials to choose from. This ultimately meant as system where everything was broken so nothing was, and a system which depended on social contracts to be playable (as in, I won't break the system beyond this degree, as a social contract). And ultimately I think that really harmed the game in the long run or I think we'd all still be playing some sort of 3e either literally or in a slightly refined form. But it was certainly the high water mark for depth of complexity.

    But be very clear about what you are asking for. You are asking to break a system that you are already complaining isn't able to keep up with your power gaming and needs more number inflation in order to cope.
    Last edited by Celebrim; Saturday, 28th January, 2017 at 06:13 PM.

  5. #145
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    If it's totally separate and optional, and won't become part of Adventurer's League (because then, you know, even people who don't like the rules would be forced to play with it), then why do you even care if it's official, or even from WotC? Why not just find something you like on DM's Guild and use it?
    XP AaronOfBarbaria gave XP for this post

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrosanct View Post
    Personally, and maybe I'm biased because I am a game designer, it's a huge pet peeve of mine when I hear people say they aren't a game designer and don't have time or the energy to create what they want, but spend hours a day on a message board insisting on going after game designers as not knowing what they're doing or constantly complaining about how they aren't getting what their individual preference is. It's somewhat maddening.
    Why is it maddening? You might want to step back into the real world for a moment because at the end of the day we are consumers paying for a product, or in my case a consumer who has been paying for products since 1984. It's normal that people will complain when they aren't getting what they want. I think you forget that this is a discussion board where these things are what these boards are designed to cater to. I may not be a game designer, but I've been around the game long enough to be able to spot things and know when a game designer is off.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfcrusher View Post
    If it's totally separate and optional, and won't become part of Adventurer's League (because then, you know, even people who don't like the rules would be forced to play with it), then why do you even care if it's official, or even from WotC? Why not just find something you like on DM's Guild and use it?
    Because it's been proven time and time and time again that:

    A: Most of the stuff on DMGuild is broken or just plain bad.

    B: Most DM's will not allow it at their tables.

    I think some of you forget that fanmade stuff isn't anything new. Wizard's may have changed the way it is presented but hasn't changed people's attitude about it or the quality of stuff.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsetaker View Post
    Why is it maddening? You might want to step back into the real world for a moment because at the end of the day we are consumers paying for a product, or in my case a consumer who has been paying for products since 1984. It's normal that people will complain when they aren't getting what they want. I think you forget that this is a discussion board where these things are what these boards are designed to cater to. I may not be a game designer, but I've been around the game long enough to be able to spot things and know when a game designer is off.
    Step back into the real world? LOL, you're really good at this cognitive dissonance thing. I have been in the real world, and that's what I keep trying to tell you. I have experience in this sort of thing, and I'm telling you how the real world actually works.

    Businesses don't care how long you've been buying product for, they only care if you will continue to buy product. And no one is forcing you to buy anything you don't want. They didn't keep the contents of the PHB secret from you, making you buy something you had no idea what was included. These boards are for discussion, but I'm pretty sure Morrus doesn't run them with the goal of having people complain constantly and never ending about problems with literally no motivation to try to fix them themselves when they have the tools to do so. Are complaints part of discussion? Yes, but I doubt it's the intent to have a forum of nothing but armchair quarterbacks doing nothing BUT complain.

    And yeah, it is maddening when someone with no experience and admitted no desire thinks they know better about a job than the people who are actually working the job. You didn't get exactly what you wanted? Congratulations. There's a support group for people like you. It's called "everyone" and we meet at the bar at 5.* Seriously, I don't know that many people that got exactly what they wanted. But you know what? We were given the tools to fix that, and create those areas we found lacking.

    That's the real world.


    *stealing from Drew Carey

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsetaker View Post
    Because it's been proven time and time and time again that:

    A: Most of the stuff on DMGuild is broken or just plain bad.

    B: Most DM's will not allow it at their tables.

    I don't think you know what "proven" means. A is completely subjective, and I'd be very interested in seeing your "proof" over and over again about that. And while B is true for a lot of DMs, I don't think it has been proven that MOST won't. MOST DMs I've talked to and played with will allow DMs Guild stuff after being able to review it and having the option of tweaking it to fit their games. That's not a flat out refusal.

    So either provide your proof, or stop making up red herring arguments because you all you want to do is complain.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsetaker View Post
    Why is it maddening? You might want to step back into the real world for a moment because at the end of the day we are consumers paying for a product, or in my case a consumer who has been paying for products since 1984. It's normal that people will complain when they aren't getting what they want. I think you forget that this is a discussion board where these things are what these boards are designed to cater to. I may not be a game designer, but I've been around the game long enough to be able to spot things and know when a game designer is off.
    I think that its the difference between:
    "I like X mechanic/subsystem/whatever and I think that it would be really cool if it was incorporated into the official rules."
    And:
    "I want X and the designers suck and can't do their jobs because they haven't/won't make it part of the official rules. The game is failing because of that." Repeated ad nauseam.
    XP AaronOfBarbaria, cbwjm gave XP for this post

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