D&D 4E New 4E: Divorcing Class and Role (and what is a controller?)

Xeviat · Feb 13, 2017

Hi everyone,

As I play 5th Edition D&D more, I find myself wanting to fuss with things. I took some time to think on it and it seems that it would be less work for me to tweak 4E to be the game I want to run instead of changing more things about 5E. I like the level by level approach to 5E multiclassing, and I like how the classes read, but I like the balance of 4E and the rhythm of the gameplay and the more tactical combats. I don't like players getting 1 shot at level 1, I don't like boring bag of HP monsters ... so I think I'm going to go back to 4E.

But, I really want to play around with how it is presented so I can reintroduce some of my players to 4E. A big chunk of them claim to hate 4E, even though some of them never really played it. Since I can't really sell 4E stuff anymore, I'm going to be publicly working on this project. Hopefully it's interesting to other people. So, here's some of my ideas:

1) I want to divorce class from role. Class determines the character's place in the world and how they overcome their challenges. Each class will have abilities that cater to a playstyle, but their role will be determined by a choice. The broader, more classic classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) will be able to be every role, while the more specialized classes will be focused a bit more. Many of the 4E classes will be combined: An Invoker is a Controller Cleric, and an Avenger is a Striker Paladin, for instance.
2) I'd like to adjust the class structure to allow for 3E/5E style multiclassing, but if this isn't possible then I'll just adjust the way feat-multiclassing worked.
3) I'm going to start with a 1-20 class structure.
4) Spells and Exploits will be largely removed from the classes and instead simply be spell/exploit lists in their own section of the "book". Rather than having a dozen level 1 encounter powers that deal 1[W]+Abil damage and cause slow till end of turn, it will be 1 exploit that a number of classes will have access to.
5) On Encounters/Dailies: This is one of the larger changes I'm looking at. A level 20 character in 4E has 4 encounters and 4 dailies. I'm looking at having spells return to their classic levels and have them largely start off as dailies and then become encounters as you go up. Utility spells will likely have to remain, especially as some aren't designed to be spammed (the cure wounds chain would be very bad if it could be used every encounter).

Here's a really quick example of what the 5E Wizard would look like if converted to a more 4E class approach:

Level	Features	Cantrips	1^st	2^nd	3^rd	4^th	5^th	6^th	7^th	8^th	9^th
1	Spellbook, Arcane Recovery	3	E
2	Arcane Tradition	3	E
3		3	E	D
4	ASI	4	E	D
5		4	E	E	D
6	Tradition Feature	4	E	E	D
7		4	E	E	D	D
8	ASI	4	E	E	D	D
9		4	E	E	E	D	D
10	Tradition Feature	5	E	E	E	D	D
11		5	E	E	E	D	D	D
12	ASI	5	E	E	E	D	D	D
13		5	E	E	E	E	D	D	D
14	Tradition Feature	5	E	E	E	E	D	D	D
15		5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D
16	ASI	5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D
17		5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D	D
18	Spell Mastery	5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D	D
19	ASI	5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D	D
20	Signature Spell	5	E	E	E	E	E	D	D	D	D

I might not go with the exact structure, but I'm thinking a flow like this could work out.

What are your thoughts?

Xeviat · Feb 13, 2017

Part of the thread title was "What is a Controller?". This is a question that is going to be important when having classes have the ability to be multiple roles.

Defenders have their Marks, or marking auras.
Strikers have some sort of damage buff, be it a constant +Ability score to damage, some extra dice, or even free minor action attacks.
Leaders have their 2-3/encounter minor action heals.
Controllers have ... well ...

What do controllers have? There's no "controller" role ability.

If you look at the original entry Multiclass feats, I think we can see a little bit of what the controller is: the controller is defined by the at-will powers available to them. Multiclass Rogue gives 1/encounter sneak attack. Multiclass Fighter gives 1/encounter mark. Multiclass Cleric gives 1/day healing word. Multiclass Wizard gives 1/encounter wizard at-will.

But, if I'm opening spells and exploits up to more classes, how do I retain this? What does a "controller wizard" get over a "striker wizard"? What did the Wizard get over the Sorcerer in 4th?

The Wizard (Arcanist) had 1/encounter impliment powers. They have their spellbook ability to swap out dailies and utilities.
The Sorcerer got +Stat+X to damage, some energy resistance, and some other little stuff.

I looked at them because their at-wills were quite comparable.

So, what sets a controller apart to you? If, lets say, the Fighter had options for each role, how would you differentiate a controller? Lets say the Fighter has two controller options; one is a polearm wielding Dragoon and one is a longbow or crossbow wielding Marksman. The Hunter and Scout Rangers had some different abilities; the Hunter got some spiffy At-wills, while the Scout got a free action two-weapon attack.

Xeviat · Feb 13, 2017

Reserved 2

MwaO · Feb 13, 2017

Controllers I'd make multi-targeting. So Wizards get Close Blast/Area, Invokers get Close Burst/Attack Extra Target, Druids get Close Blast, Attack Extra Target in Beastform, etc...

The Human Target · Feb 13, 2017

Controllers sadly don't have many explicit controller class features, though it's not really hard to think of some. (ie increasing AoE size, killing minions with miss damage, increasing push/pull/slide distance, ignoring resistances, omitting squares from AoEs, debuffing enemy saves, increasing effect directions by a round, etc)

Controllers= fight at range, kill minions, soften up non-minions with AoE damage, debuff enemy numbers, control enemy movement.

The Human Target · Feb 13, 2017

There are three main ways to open up class roles more.

Class and role are totally decoupled. You choose your class, then your role. All classes have powers suitable to each role. All characters of the same role use the same role enforcing mechanics. So there is one defender mechanic, one striker mechanic, etc etc shared by all classes. Simple.

Or

Classes have no role, but 4 subclasses each of which gives you a different role and a mechanic that is unique to the class. Which is neat, but a huge amount of work depending on the number of classes.

Or

Each class has a main role, with 4 subclasses that clearly define your secondary role and augment your class mechanic. For example, every fighter is a defender with a basic marking mechanic like the fighters combat challenge. A Guardian fighter (defender) doubles down on defending, with an increased potency mark, say -4 to hit anyone but them. A Slayer fighter (striker) gains bonus damage vs enemies it has marked. A Brawler (controller) fighter can reduce marked enemies AC and immobilize them. A Champion fighter (leader) can grant temp HP to allies attacked by a marked enemy.

If I was going to choose one, I'd go option 3.

Raith5 · Feb 13, 2017

I really like this idea ( while I like both 4e and 5e, ultimately I think 4e is a more fun game despite the elegance of 5e). I really like the idea of divorcing of class and role - especially for the core classes.

Now in my 4e campaign the best controller in the party is fighter and the controllerly (!) part of his makeup comes from his powers (Come a t get it, footwork lure etc) but he uses a polearm - and this i really important to his ability to control in spaces around him and target multiple foes. I think the ability of move enemies around/knock prone should not be underestimated. And I think it is logical that the choice of weapon should really influence the capacity of execute roles and make weapons distinct in combat.

So yeah, controlling is moving targets around, knocking enemies prone, attacking multiple enemies, softening and debuffing (imposing weakness/vulnerabilities) denying certain spaces in the battlefield, denying actions (daze/stun/charms) - basically anything that really annoys DMs!

Teemu · Feb 13, 2017

Xeviat said:
2) I'd like to adjust the class structure to allow for 3E/5E style multiclassing, but if this isn't possible then I'll just adjust the way feat-multiclassing worked.

There's an article on an alternative multiclassing system in Dragon #421 that you may want to look at for ideas. This system is somewhat similar to 3e multiclassing in that you select a class at every level, although you don't gain all the benefits as you would in 3e. Still, it could provide some inspiration for your project.

thanson02 · Feb 13, 2017

The Human Target said:
Each class has a main role, with 4 subclasses that clearly define your secondary role and augment your class mechanic. For example, every fighter is a defender with a basic marking mechanic like the fighters combat challenge. A Guardian fighter (defender) doubles down on defending, with an increased potency mark, say -4 to hit anyone but them. A Slayer fighter (striker) gains bonus damage vs enemies it has marked. A Brawler (controller) fighter can reduce marked enemies AC and immobilize them. A Champion fighter (leader) can grant temp HP to allies attacked by a marked enemy.

If I was going to choose one, I'd go option 3.

If I was ever going to do a 4E rework, this is what I was going to do. Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who came up with this.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

MwaO · Feb 13, 2017

Teemu said:
There's an article on an alternative multiclassing system in Dragon #421 that you may want to look at for ideas. This system is somewhat similar to 3e multiclassing in that you select a class at every level, although you don't gain all the benefits as you would in 3e. Still, it could provide some inspiration for your project.

I wouldn't. The person who wrote that I don't think understood how 4e's system worked. And probably spent 15 minutes writing the whole thing without even doing rudimentary thinking about 'Well, if you don't get a power at a particular level, just take Warden instead - because you get a free hp!'

The 4e multiclass system is phenomenally great for a reason - it means that you can be class X, multiclass into class Y, and then pick exactly how much of class Y you'd like to be. Without potentially falling into a big trap choice. A Fighter who Paragon Multiclasses Wizard as an example can still be nearly just as functional as a Fighter picks a Paragon Path instead. Sometimes even better - you'd be surprised at just how functional Color Spray can be against melee-only opponents who are dazed two squares away from the Fighter without any valid charge targets - except by moving past the Fighter...