Martial Practice : Blood Demand

pemerton said:

As you and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] are discussing, you can probably depart (at the risk of player disgruntlement, I guess) - and I think [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] has departed too. And I in my (still fairly new) Dark Sun game we will be using inherent bonuses, which means probably treasure will be much more haphazard than in my main 4e game.

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I'll be using a Moldvay-Cook/Marsh B/X inspired approach in my new 4e Nentir Vale game - low level areas have +1 stuff, mid level have +2 and +3 stuff. No +4 or +5 stuff unless we get into super-high level (16-20) play, and capping level at 20 rather than 30. Heroic Tier PCs could receive gifts of +1 and +2 gear, since that is the level of stuff that is crafted and traded. +3 stuff would generally be legendary, not traded, unlikely to be gifted except in very special circumstances - "Reforge the Sword that was Broken".

For this to work, for a +2 bonus to mean something, no Inherent bonuses of course. I will be encouraging Expertise feats though which give +1 at Heroic & +2 at Paragon. Also will be tending to lowball monster/NPC levels and using minions with 1/4 hp as the 'standard' opponent, 'standard' monsters as leaders & elites. Converting most Elites & Solos down a step.

pemerton said:

The fact that 4e just went ahead and did this (even if under a misleading heading), rather than faffing around with some sort of halfway house like wealth-by-level guidelines, I thnk is just another sign of the delibereatness and the crispness of its design. It knows what it wants to do, and it just does it!

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Yeah, I just don't like the result in this case. I think the consumable/ritual/scroll system failed to engage most players BECAUSE of this parcel system. Players literally felt like they were being asked to pay out of their character builds for a benefit that was temporary. They looked at it as pound foolish, that in the long run only permanent items were really worth having as you actually got to keep what you earned.

Now, objectively, if you analyzed it, to a large degree it was actually cheaper to use potions or rituals to achieve things as you might only actually need the ability a few times, and those consumables were MUCH cheaper than paying for a permanent item just to use it one time.

Still, human psychology. Even in my games where I was looser with treasure and tried to make sure that any consumable that was expected to be needed was 'free', STILL the players weren't that enthusiastic about them. They always stated that it felt like they were having to spend their allowance to buy lunch.

There is some psychology involved...

When they see the acquisition of ritual components as being tied to application of gathering(ie a bit of time and a skill use), it seems to bring it home. (they are not spending an allowance but something extra)

The allowance of heros is... earned by being heros... everyday fairly mundane activities isnt part of that.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Players literally felt like they were being asked to pay out of their character builds for a benefit that was temporary. They looked at it as pound foolish, that in the long run only permanent items were really worth having as you actually got to keep what you earned.

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I've seen this posted before.

For whatever reason, it's not been an issue in my game. And for what it's worth, I think that sort of hoarding reasoning rests on two fallacies: (1) the number of challenges is also finite, so "permanent" doesn't mean "infiinte"; (2 - and OK, maybe this one's not really a fallacy) the time-value of money - 100 gp spent now to achieve some valuable goal now is worth more than 100 gp spent in the future to achieve some as-yet conjectured goal that will be important then.

Instead of making 2 abilities One which makes an onus to act now vs getting an affliction and one which allows the act to be specified later ie as a debt of honor which does the same I wonder if I can express it as one ability.

Time vs Action Cost
I am thinking this might work better as a standard action too...ie you are fighting someone get them bloodied pull out an intimidate with some extra power and a healing surge behind it.

Other ideas that have been mentioned might be to make this as an intimidation skill power.

pemerton said:

I've seen this posted before.

For whatever reason, it's not been an issue in my game. And for what it's worth, I think that sort of hoarding reasoning rests on two fallacies: (1) the number of challenges is also finite, so "permanent" doesn't mean "infiinte"; (2 - and OK, maybe this one's not really a fallacy) the time-value of money - 100 gp spent now to achieve some valuable goal now is worth more than 100 gp spent in the future to achieve some as-yet conjectured goal that will be important then.

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It almost seems the INVERSE.

1) The number of challenges is distinctly FINITE, but still very large, such that permanent full-time effects like enhancements ARE quite valuable and a one-use consumable would have to be very cheap, and/or very potent, to compete with that. However, I do agree with you that most items are effectively far from infinite. So maybe the fallacy is "permanent items are much more useful".

2) Time value of money says that "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" effectively. So spending 100gp now to solve a problem that otherwise will prove fatal would clearly be better than hording it. The issue here is the structure of 4e. It isn't intended to kill PCs, at least not in some sort of arbitrary accidental way that more resources will prevent. Certainly 4e, as you and I play it (even if we're not exactly doing it identically we have the same basic aim) isn't about a player test of skill that requires them to find the puzzle solution of character survival.

So one could say that a CHARACTER (from who's perspective survival certainly is important) might think "gosh I should get this potion now so I can beat the ogre, who cares if I won't be able to buy a pair of magic boots next week? I'll worry about that then." BUT THE PLAYER thinks "I'll come up with some other plot device that wins the day against the ogre, but I really want those boots!"

I feel like the treasure parcels in that sense actually undermine RP.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Time value of money says that "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" effectively. So spending 100gp now to solve a problem that otherwise will prove fatal would clearly be better than hording it. The issue here is the structure of 4e. It isn't intended to kill PCs, at least not in some sort of arbitrary accidental way that more resources will prevent. Certainly 4e, as you and I play it (even if we're not exactly doing it identically we have the same basic aim) isn't about a player test of skill that requires them to find the puzzle solution of character survival.

So one could say that a CHARACTER (from who's perspective survival certainly is important) might think "gosh I should get this potion now so I can beat the ogre, who cares if I won't be able to buy a pair of magic boots next week? I'll worry about that then." BUT THE PLAYER thinks "I'll come up with some other plot device that wins the day against the ogre, but I really want those boots!"

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The bit about non-fataility cuts both ways - if you can beat the ogre without the potion, you can beat the ogre without the boots!

In my game, the expenditure on rituals tends not to be for sheer survival, so much as to achieve the PCs' immediate goals.

pemerton said:

The bit about non-fataility cuts both ways - if you can beat the ogre without the potion, you can beat the ogre without the boots!

In my game, the expenditure on rituals tends not to be for sheer survival, so much as to achieve the PCs' immediate goals.

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Well, of course, because you can ALWAYS beat the ogre, or even if you can't somehow the story will go on in some direction and you'll be in it, assuming you didn't opt to die in the process. The point is, the boots will be there forever once you get them, the potion is just gone and it was in the end a plot device. Why do you have to pay for plot devices?

Now, I think the proper answer is something like what you suggest, that PC goals can be 'bought' in effect by invoking the use of specific consumables, etc. This just further begs the question of why as a player I'm paying. Are gold pieces a plot coupon now? I think we should discuss that! I think if that's what 4e wants maybe it should be a little more overt about it! Maybe it shouldn't try to have them serve 3 purposes (reward, plot coupon, and character upgrade currency).

AbdulAlhazred said:

Maybe it shouldn't try to have them serve 3 purposes (reward, plot coupon, and character upgrade currency).

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oh... my... interesting thinking I admit I wish the tangent was its own thread

Garthanos said:

oh... my... interesting thinking I admit I wish the tangent was its own thread

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Oh, come now [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION]! Do you begrudge me totally threadjacking just ONE of your threads?

Honestly, I'm not sure what concrete ideas I have there. I turned character build items into narrative currency in HoML, though there's still room for players to be in charge of that, so I guess one COULD do something. In 4e I'm not sure. Do away with the restriction on making stuff of only your level or less? Then PCs could make better stuff by spending more. Might be somewhat interesting. In terms of plot coupon... Well, maybe the interesting thing is just to make better plot coupons, which definitely we've all touched on at various points here. I think creating more flexible ritual/consumable 'stuff' goes in that direction. Then its a question of paying for it. Maybe one thing that could happen is a system of 'trade offs' when building an adventure. The GM gets X amount of XP to work with, but what if he grants the PCs a 'freeby' then he can spend more! This could work the other way too, if I decide I can pull out a potion of fire resistance, then the GM gets to have some resources too, so maybe the potion helps, for now, but things could get stickier later.