Martial Practices how can we fix them, systematically?

Garthanos · Feb 22, 2017

The Human Target said:
Or why not make those really specific abilities more broadly useful?

I made up something I call the invocations of Justice and Freedom they are basically a set of mini-divine style rites which operate like the thieving skill (though part of what they do is actually sort of anti-thieving and they are often rather noisy with minor compensations for it).

They have the breadth of a skill and for the most part can directly be use in many if not all situations one might apply the thieving skill.

I posted a thread about Arcane and Primal Skills since I have a better write up of that one..

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?526071-ARCANE-AND-PRIMAL-SKILLS

Garthanos · Feb 22, 2017

Perhaps What I needed to do was pick on a given Martial Practice and see if anyone had ideas about how to make it more awesome...

(Psi)SeveredHead · Feb 22, 2017

The Human Target said:
You could have the usage time of utilities be whatever you want. Standard action 5 minutes, 24 hours, whatever fits.

If an ability isn't going to be used often, does it even need to exist? 4e already heavily goes away with the specific to rare situations problem solving powers.

Or why not make those really specific abilities more broadly useful?

Water Walk was a great example of that type of ritual. Same with Speak with Dead. Either are very useful when you need them. You might use then repeatedly in a single day. You don't need them every day. You won't necessarily know you'll need them. For instance, I used the ritual when we went spelunking; we didn't know there would be such a big river in that cave (we went a bit deeper than was typical).

Garthanos · Feb 22, 2017

Sigh, Here I go now looking to improve practices and getting distracted, smh,
I mean I like rituals HOWEVER - sometimes...

Why isnt the casting time for the Fastidiousness ritual ... a standard action... as a standard action its awesome as a 10 minute ritual its mundane???????

I also found a case where a ritual can be cast as a standard action when its been pre-invested into a Ritual Scroll (Silent Image).
was this an experiment?

While MP costing healing surges already means they have a cost which is a discouragement for using it when an Action cost is important.

The Fast Casting from a Ritual Scroll of that Ritual made me wonder if we can come up with away to do a Rehearsal of a martial power to enable it to be used as a standard action?

Or perhaps some rituals/MP are naturals to be fast cast and have an addition HS cost if fast cast. (a Endurance check for Rituals or Wisdom Check for MP might be used to reduce that cost)

I am seeing why @ABDULahazred has combined the concept of rituals and MP some of the cool ideas for one apply to the other.

hmmmmmmmm

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 22, 2017

Garthanos said:
Sigh, Here I go now looking to improve practices and getting distracted, smh,
I mean I like rituals HOWEVER - sometimes...

Why isnt the casting time for the Fastidiousness ritual ... a standard action... as a standard action its awesome as a 10 minute ritual its mundane???????

I also found a case where a ritual can be cast as a standard action when its been pre-invested into a Ritual Scroll (Silent Image).
was this an experiment?

While MP costing healing surges already means they have a cost which is a discouragement for using it when an Action cost is important.

The Fast Casting from a Ritual Scroll of that Ritual made me wonder if we can come up with away to do a Rehearsal of a martial power to enable it to be used as a standard action?

Or perhaps some rituals/MP are naturals to be fast cast and have an addition HS cost if fast cast. (a Endurance check for Rituals or Wisdom Check for MP might be used to reduce that cost)

I am seeing why @ABDULahazred has combined the concept of rituals and MP some of the cool ideas for one apply to the other.

hmmmmmmmm

Well, there's PLENTY of precedent for 'undertake a ritual/practice/alchemy that produces some result which you can then invoke as (basically) a consumable'. I guess what we're talking about IS consumables here in essence. That was a subsystem that KINDA worked in 4e, but I think it was hampered by the 'treasure is on a budget' thing.

Garthanos · Feb 22, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, there's PLENTY of precedent for 'undertake a ritual/practice/alchemy that produces some result which you can then invoke as (basically) a consumable'. I guess what we're talking about IS consumables here in essence. That was a subsystem that KINDA worked in 4e, but I think it was hampered by the 'treasure is on a budget' thing.

True it is indistinguishable from a consumable situation. (I allow gathering of ritual components sometimes ignoring their budget impact especially for things which push the story along .... shhhhhh keep it a secret)

Pre-spending healing surges for an mp is well a non-limit if it can be stored from day to day so a Rehearsal only aides performance that day. I think that rather works.

Since there is a paragon item which reduces casting time of rituals to half
and an epic one which can on a daily basis reduce their component cost as well.

GMTs enhancing MP seems very much in order. ... Or Perhaps a Crown.
Perhaps one which enables that saving throw to not lose the healing surge cost.

---------
I do think the extra healing surge expenditure to burst cast some MP and some Rituals might be quite useable. (but definitely not for Teleport LOL)

I am going to house rule fastidious to be a standard action for crying outloud.

Tony Vargas · Feb 22, 2017

Garthanos said:
I also found a case where a ritual can be cast as a standard action when its been pre-invested into a Ritual Scroll (Silent Image).

I like the idea of rituals taking real time to do, and utilities being the quicker magicks. A Utility that let you quickly cast a pre-prepared ritual, though, that could work. Sounds like a Wizard thang.

The Fast Casting from a Ritual Scroll of that Ritual made me wonder if we can come up with away to do a Rehearsal of a martial power to enable it to be used as a standard action?

OK, along the same vein, maybe one of those Feats that lets you swap out a utility.

Martial Cache Feat
Preqs: Martial Practitioner, at least one Martial Utility Power.
Effect: You can gain the Martial Cache power in place of a Martial Utility of your choice. It takes on the level of the power it replaces.
Martial Cache Power
Standard Action Personal
Requirement: You must have previously gathered the materials needed to perform a martial practice, and spent the time needed to perform it in preparation. If the materials cannot be carried, they must be at the place you left them.
Effect: The effects of the Martial Practice occur immediately.

(Yeah, still not a game designer.)

The Human Target · Feb 23, 2017

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Water Walk was a great example of that type of ritual. Same with Speak with Dead. Either are very useful when you need them. You might use then repeatedly in a single day. You don't need them every day. You won't necessarily know you'll need them. For instance, I used the ritual when we went spelunking; we didn't know there would be such a big river in that cave (we went a bit deeper than was typical).

To be fair, plenty of skills, feats, and powers in the base game aren't necessarily going to be used every day in game or every session.

Speak with Dead would get tons of use as a daily utility I think. Or Tensers Floating Disk. Or Passwall. Or Tree Stride. Or Instant Summons. Or Silence. Or Rope Trick.

Water walk might be too niche, but then make it an at-will utility and see how often the player figured out a way to use it.

I'm inclined to make the rarer circumstantial but still fun magic into items, potions, and scrolls anyone can buy and use.

(Psi)SeveredHead · Feb 23, 2017

We got into a battle (enemy were on the other side of the river), and surprised the enemy by having the whole party walk across the river to them. Walking, running, charging, etc, depending on the particular PC. It's not like we couldn't have crossed the river without the ritual (stronger characters could have helped the weaker ones across).

I suppose a packet of 3e-style scrolls could have done it too, but a single 4e ritual scroll would work to teach the ritualist how to do it, then repeatedly perform the ritual, and doesn't rely on the DM dropping multiples of particular scrolls. (Speaking of which, how in 4e do you create ritual scrolls or Martial Practice manuals?)

Tony Vargas said:
I like the idea of rituals taking real time to do, and utilities being the quicker magicks. A Utility that let you quickly cast a pre-prepared ritual, though, that could work. Sounds like a Wizard thang.

Agree with all that.

OK, along the same vein, maybe one of those Feats that lets you swap out a utility.

Martial Cache Feat

And I think this is an awesome idea.

Garthanos · Feb 23, 2017

oh look thread for how to make a martial resource more competitive now is make the mage more powerful...

Key question honestly...

Is there any martial practice that would be too powerful done as a standard action... I do not mean inappropriate to the fluff I mean too powerful?