If the mage spells are being weakened, what compensation is being given to the mage?

Edena_of_Neith · Jun 7, 2003

Simple enough, this.
From what I'm hearing and reading, some mage spells are being reduced in duration, and others are being altered in their effects (such as Haste.)
There seems to be a consensus that - for the purpose of these spells only - the mage is being weakened as a class.

So, what is the mage (and the sorcerer) getting in return?
I assume the mage is getting something in return. Unless WOTC has decided to weaken the class.

Is it a longer spell list? (diversity)
Is it stronger spells in other areas? (specific strengthening)
Is it new skills?
Is it new feats?
Is it new abilities?

What gives, here?

Goobermunch · Jun 7, 2003

I suspect that WotC has simply decided to rebalance the arcane caster to be somewhat less dominant at higher levels.

--G

Ankh-Morpork Guard · Jun 7, 2003

Edena_of_Neith said:
There seems to be a consensus that - for the purpose of these spells only - the mage is being weakened as a class.

Pfft. I still don't believe it. The things being "nerfed" and "powered down" are spells my group hasn't really used in "abusive" ways, or even all that much. The classes are strong and I've barely seen haste used in any of my games, and Buffing spells are rare with my PCs. A few spells does not mean the whole class is weakened...and if a spellcaster used these spells that are being changed to the point where they will now be "weak" and "underpowered" than they've been relying on something too much.

Edena_of_Neith · Jun 7, 2003

Still, you both make it sound like WOTC is weakening the mage/sorcerer classes.

I'm not taking sides in the mage debate.
I just want to know what's going on, relating to the mage in D&D 3.5

Felon · Jun 7, 2003

Edena_of_Neith said:
There seems to be a consensus that - for the purpose of these spells only - the mage is being weakened as a class.

A "consensus"? You mean a handful of players complaining loudly and repeatedly that some spells have been tweaked for balance? That's not a consensus.

Main Entry: con·sen·sus
1 a : general agreement : UNANIMITY. b : the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>
2 : group solidarity in sentiment and belief

I haven't seen anything approaching unanimity or solidarity on the matter.

Likely, the mage gets squat. That is somewhat unfortunate--wizards and socrerers do need a more developed class package that doesn't make them look patently inferior to divine spellcasters--but I think they will still be quite viable in 3.5e.

Ankh-Morpork Guard · Jun 7, 2003

Edena_of_Neith said:
Still, you both make it sound like WOTC is weakening the mage/sorcerer classes.

I'm not taking sides in the mage debate.
I just want to know what's going on, relating to the mage in D&D 3.5

Not the class itself...only a few spells...and spells that, like it or not, DID NEED IT. Its only a handful of spells...it isn't like the entire class it going to be like the 3e Bard...even though I love the 3e Bard, it did need some help.

Eldragon · Jun 7, 2003

In an effort to avoid taking sides in the Mages stronger/weaker in 3.5 debate, I am just going to point out some Thoughts:

It is not a handful of people complaining. While I am too lazy to search the boards and write down names, I am certain there are more unique usernames unhappy with the changes than are happy. But it is far from a consensus as well.

3.5 haste is potentially better than 3.0 haste. While 2 fireballs in a round is nice, 6 Fighters (and fighting classes like barbarian) getting 1 extra attack a round is better. A magic spell needs to be aimed, and fireball can't be used very well when most of the enemy is in melee with friendly. 6 (or more) fighters with so many extra attacks can really dish out the damage fast, and the extra attack is harder to avoid than your avg. reflex save.

The 3.5 buffing spells are in most cases for most players weaker. 1min/level spells last 1 encounter, no more, while 1 hour/level spells last all day. The static +4 bonus is nice, but the buff spells really lose their usefulness.

Some spell changes are there to close loop holes and other exploits. i.e. Hold Person + Coup De Grace or Polymorphing hostiles into fish. Spells like Harm and Heal also fall into this category. While technically one might consider them weaker, I am more inclined to believe that those spells with still work the same way they always did in 90% of cases.

I believe what has most people concerned is that the magic system is getting changes beyond simple rules fixes on the "broken" spells. And we know for certain that this is the case. People don't like their characters suddenly becoming useless. Recently I decided against being a mage PC because my DM plans on switching to 3.5. The fear of having a worthless PC was enough to keep me from being a mage (and I am a mage 9 times out of 10). In other words, the knowledge of a change coming, and next to no information regarding that change has a lot of people assuming the worst.

bwgwl · Jun 7, 2003

hopefully nothing -- mages were too powerful before.

Sejs · Jun 8, 2003

They're getting re-balanced with relation to the other classes for 3.5ed.

That's the long and the short of it, right there.

It's not that they're shifting the class's focus from one thing to another. They're not saying 'Okay, haste is different, your stat buffs last less time, and such-and-such spell does this now, but as a reward have these new abilities and some more skill points'

They're tweaking spells that were problematic. Haste? Two spells per round was problematic - so it's gone. Extended stat buffs lasting effectivly forever? Who needs to blow 32k on an +X int item when I can just jack my int up the same ammount with a spell. Problematic - so changed. And so on.

The revision is a GOOD one, in my oppinion.

I assume the mage is getting something in return. Unless WOTC has decided to weaken the class.

You assume wrong.

William Ronald · Jun 8, 2003

Hi, Edena:

Based on my reading, there is an effort to try to rebalance everything. It is somewhat hard to judge how well this will work without seeing the finished product.

Some of the spells in 3.0 are a bit problematic. Several have been mentioned here.

There does seem to be more focus on character abilities over magic items and buff spells in D&D 3.5. I presume that this will also apply to wizards. Possibly there might be some changes in feat selection.

So, we will have to see how everything works when the books are released. Will D&D 3.5 be perfect? Of course not, human beings are involved in creating the rules.

However, I hope the new rules will solve some of the problems people have pointed out in the current rules.

(Theoretically, WotC could move towards doing a 4th Edition, but I suspect they may want to wait a few years for that. There is a pattern of revised rules followed by a new edition a few years down the road. Such was the case with the Wilderness and Dungeoneers Survival Guides that introduced skills to 1st Edition and the Skills and Powers Rules that introduced such concepts as attacks of opportunity and true dweormers to 2nd Edition. Time will tell.)