Looks like it's time for a Warlord Sub-Forum Again...somehow.

jayoungr · Mar 4, 2017

steeldragons said:
What's "hector[ing]" an enemy? That's a new one for me.

From Merriam-Webster: "to intimidate or harass by bluster or personal pressure; [e.g.] football players being hectored by their coach."

Paul Smart · Mar 4, 2017

Hector

Rather than use his strategy to boost allies, he uses it to demoralize and disarray his enemies. With choreographed attacks that are designed to be as demoralizing as they are damaging, he causes enemies to miss opportunity (attacks), take penalties to hit or damage, or to incur fear-based conditions. Like the vanguard, his powers trigger off attacks, but unlike the vanguard, his attacks are meant to affect other enemies, rather than his allies.

Signature Power: Hit an enemy and impose a condition on nearby allies of that enemy.

Sacrosanct · Mar 4, 2017

jayoungr said:
They kind of did, in SCAG's Purple Dragon Knight--I can dig out the quote if you want, but someone who worked on the book confirmed on a podcast that it was an attempt to get a warlord-like subclass into 5E. And I don't think any of the warlord fans on this board were happy with it (can't speak for anyone not on this board).

Yeah, but there was no way they were going to call it a warlord, or imply in the book that the subclass was meant to be 5e's version of a warlord. If they did, I imagine the reaction would be pretty vitriolic lol

doctorbadwolf · Mar 4, 2017

jayoungr said:
They kind of did, in SCAG's Purple Dragon Knight--I can dig out the quote if you want, but someone who worked on the book confirmed on a podcast that it was an attempt to get a warlord-like subclass into 5E. And I don't think any of the warlord fans on this board were happy with it (can't speak for anyone not on this board).

It doesn't work that well, felt rushed or phoned in, and is a subclass, and thus still mostly does what the base class does, rather than what fans of the concept want it to do.

And as a Purple Dragon Knight fan, I didn't want a subclass for that concept to just be a cheap consolation prize for some other concept. I wanted it to be built to be a purple dragon knight.

Yunru · Mar 4, 2017

I would of been happier with the purple dragon knight if they hadn't been so afraid of vitriolic, rabid anti-Warlord fans that they put the defining feature at level 10 rather than level 3.

If those two had been swapped, I would of been fine (though somewhat disappointed) with a multiclass of Mastermind, Purple Knight, and Bard.

mellored · Mar 4, 2017

Sacrosanct said:
Yeah, but there was no way they were going to call it a warlord, or imply in the book that the subclass was meant to be 5e's version of a warlord. If they did, I imagine the reaction would be pretty vitriolic lol

People weren't happy with the PDK because there wasn't enough PDK.

The abilities where fine, the name was fine, but it only let you be a PDK a few times per day. Most of the time a PDK is a fighter, swinging his weapon.

Sacrosanct · Mar 4, 2017

mellored said:
of course you can.

Try listing everything a wizard can do. Burn things, teleportation, turn invisible, fly, summon creatures, dominate people's minds, turn people to stone, reverse gravity, disguise themselves as anything, suck the life out of people, create illusion, clone themselves....
Over 30 different spells and 10 cantrips just at level 1.
it's a massive list, way bigger than the warlord, and everyone will have a different opinion on what spells they should be able to cast, and what their ideal version of a wizard is.

Yet you can have a wizard who isn't OP, because he can't do everything all at once. You have to choose which one you do.

Similarly, a warlord could have 20 maneuvers, but only do one at a time. Just don't do anything like give them more actions and you're fine.

And as a balance point, consider that a level 11 wizard could cast haste every battle. So a level 11 warlord should give out about the same amount.

mellored said:
People weren't happy with the PDK because there wasn't enough PDK.

The abilities where fine, the name was fine, but it only let you be a PDK a few times per day. Most of the time a PDK is a fighter, swinging his weapon.

Can you see how these two statements are contradictory? First, you're saying the warlord doesn't have to be OP because you can limit what it does to keep it balanced with other classes, and then say that the problem with the PDK is that it was limited in its abilities (to balance it with the other classes).

Which goes back to what I was saying initially. To have the warlord do what people want it to do, it becomes an OP class. If I were to guess, it's because people want the 5e warlord to do what the 4e warlord did, and thus my caution about comparing classes from different editions.

And as a balance point, consider that a level 11 wizard could cast haste every battle. So a level 11 warlord should give out about the same amount

I forgot to address this earlier, so I'll do it now while I remember. You can't do this without the warlord being way too OP because you're forgetting that the warlord (being a fighter) gets action surge, extra attacks, better armor, more ASIs, and better HP than a wizard. So what you're doing is like I said: you want 2 classes in 1. Everything the fighter has, PLUS the power and utility comparable to a wizard's spells.

Onslaught · Mar 4, 2017

From SCAG:

Banneret serves as the generic name for this archetype if you use it in other campaign settings or to model warlords other than Purple Dragon knights

We had our Warlord all along! Wow!

Yunru said:
I would of been happier with the purple dragon knight if they hadn't been so afraid of vitriolic, rabid anti-Warlord fans that they put the defining feature at level 10 rather than level 3.

It's nice of these forums to learn new words (like vitriolic).

I don't like the Warlord from 4E, but I kinda like PDK implementation... however I agree with you when you say Inspiring Surge comes a bit late in the game.

On the other hand, if you push Rallying Cry (which is a nicely implemented ability) forward, it became a little lackluster... 10HP at Lvl 10 is, well... meh...

So... "What If":

Lvl 3: Rallying Surge: when you Surge you can A) use effect from Rallying Cry; or B) use effect from Inspiring Surge... maybe as trade-off for having more options is that the attack doesn't include ability bonus to damage, or the range of effect is reduced (to 30ft instead of 60ft)
Lvl 7: OK
Lvl 10: When you Second Wind you get Rallying Cry, improve lvl 3 Inspiring Surge to what it is in the book

I would prefer a discussion about "how make PDK more appealing" (and yet balanced) than more of "We need a Warlord class"... 'cos, well... we already have, it's written there...

jodyjohnson · Mar 4, 2017

We have a Warlord archetype (I'd say two).

Fighter archetypes have a very small power budget to work within because so much of the ability budget comes from the Fighter chassis.

An archetype doesn't cover the Class.

You crit more and get an extra combat style covers the entire design space of the Champion - try wedging a versatile support class into that space.