Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Nagol

Unimportant
Further thoughts on illusionism and railroading:

It's true that fictional events, unlike events in the real world, are authored. But how does this tend to show that some approach or other to RPGing is illusionism?

Illusionism requires an illusion. There's no illusion in acknowledging that the fiction is authored. If anything, wouldn't it be illusionistic to somehow pretend that the elements that make up a fiction aren't authored, but rather are the result of the (purely imaginary) causal processes taking place (as authored) within the fiction?

Illusionism isn't describing the fiction: it is describing how the fiction is being presented. The fiction is being presented as if it is being generated through choice on the players' part, but that choice is an illusion. The will of the players has be stolen by the GM so he can present his desire.

For example, if the GM knows that the next destination is going to be a castle, the following exchange is illusionism:

"Do you go west or south?"
"West."
"You reach a castle."

The GM presented the illusion of choice. The fiction is the fiction. The feeling that the players had a say in the outcome is the illusion.

*EDIT* I want to expand my definition slightly: it is illusionism when the presentation suggests the fiction is being derived from one a consequence and it actually is being derived from GM intention instead.

So, obviously rolling on the wandering monster chart but placing preferred encounter, openly rolling on a treasure table, but placing a preferred item, asking for player choice then placing your intended destination are all illusionism.

Asking which way the payers go then randomly determining what they find in that direction (or even purposefully designing what they find) isn't illusionism if the players understand what part choice plays in the determination.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Can I run a game that focuses on powergamming with MHRP?
Yes.

have you looked in the 5e DMG? It's not really bursting with PC build options or options specifically for combat resolutions but instead has a multitude of ways to modify all aspects of 5e to play differently. Everything from hero points to adding honor or sanity into the game
The Blossome are Falling has Honour for BW. As far as Sanity is concerned, there is the Steel mechanic, the Corruption mechanic, and other options could easily be created using those as guidelines, and the ideas presented in the Magic and Monster Burners.

Wouldn't you just adjust what the DC's represent, shifting higher numbers for easier tasks? Or maybe I'm missing a key part of this comparison?

<snip>

So basically you are put at a standard disadvantage in order to get you to do something around your beliefs (this sound surprisingly similar to what default inspiration does in D&D for ideals, flaws and traits) in order to receive artha so that you can reach a level of minimal competence?
There are multiple considerations:

(1) Artha is earned in all sorts of ways that relate to Beliefs, Instincts and Traits: manifesting them in play; having them cause trouble in play; dramatically exemplifying them; dramatically departing from them.

(21) The dice pool system means that probability spreads are very different from D&D. If you boost DCs in 5e then some tasks become unattainable.

(3) Say 'yes' based on dramatic/pacing consideratins rather than an ingame causal assessment of whether or not success is uncertain means that ability ratings don't strictly correlate to success rates.

Inspiration has the limitation that it provides Advantage and hence doesn't stack with other sources of Advantage - therefore, especially in large quantities, potentially destablising other mechanical systems (and players rather than the GM handing it out doesn't seem to alleviate this issue); and turning into a bonus rather than a reroll compromises bounded accuracy.

D&D (and again I am speaking to 5e here) is flexible because it let's the group determine what the focus of play
As does BW: games can be focused on social conflict, combat, exploration, sword & sorcery hijinks, Dune (the Jihad: Burning Sands supplement, etc; with variant magic systems (eg Ars Magica-style "spontaneous" spell creation), various Emotional attributes, various races and lifepaths, etc.

Combat can be tactical (Fight!, Range and Cover), or not (Bloody Versus, Intent and Task), or switch back in forth in the same campaign if desired. Social conflict can be tactical and detailed (Duel of Wits) or not. There are many other options presented in the main book (the "Spokes" that contrast with the "Hub") and supplements. Eg Range and Cover can be used to adjudicate jousts, and skirmish-level or even mass combat. The skill system ranges from crafting to Logistics and Strategy, and the situations of play can be equally varied. And as Burning THACO shows, Beliefs can be player-chosen or focused on a GM's pre-authored situation.

It won't play like D&D; but, as I've said, D&D won't play like BW either.
 

pemerton

Legend
You seem to want the PCs/players to default to proactive and the game world/DM always be reactive (or passive if the PCs do nothing), which seems like a very one-way street.
I don't know why you say this.

I keep talking about the GM framing the PCs (and, thereby, the players) into situations that provoke choices. I give examples: eg, the PCs arrive to confront the tarrasque and their are maruts hovering there, ready to fight off anyone trying to stope the tarrasque; the PCs turn up for dinner with the baron and their nemesis is there as his advisor; the PCs leave their ruined tower and are attacked by the wastrel elf wielding the nickel-silver mace; etc.

The players (as I posted) establish the dramatic need of their PCs; the GM frames the PCs into situations that - in light of that dramatic need - force the players to make choices for/as their PCs.

This says nothing about whether the PCs are proactive or reactive. Nor does it say anything about the gameworld. I am talking about the participants in the game, not the events that occur within the fiction.

If you-as-player can "play my character, engage the fiction, and find out what sort of stuff ensues" (your words, above) does anything else matter...such as the source of said ensuing stuff?
If the stuff is already in the GM's notes, it's not ensuing. It's already there.

If I want to know what the GM thinks would make for a good story, I can just ask him/her. I don't need to play an RPG for that!
 
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pemerton

Legend
A not-that-great example: the advisor/Baron scene, after the advisor has been made to reveal himself as a traitor - in a book or movie the Baron at this point is almost certainly going to react, probably leading to some back-and-forth between the Baron and the (soon-to-be-ex-)advisor. And while the PCs might well find this very engaging and informative, their likely-best move during this part of the scene is to - along with the rest of the court - do nothing and see how the Baron-advisor argument turns out.
My own view is that the players watching the GM act out a conflict between two NPCs does not make for good RPGing.

party is travelling through some known-to-be-dangerous wilderness to get from one town to the next. Maybe they've already scared off a marauding wolf or three and at some point diverted their course in order to avoid something big crashing through the trees. Party in theory have a reason to get where they're going but it doesn't matter whether they get there tomorrow or next month, so out of the blue someone says "Screw it, this forest is dangerous. Time someone cleaned it out. I'm going after whatever's banging those distant drums I hear - who's with me?" So the player has not only just introduced the drums into the fiction but is also trying to get the party to engage with them...and thus left-turn from whatever they were going to be doing in the next town. (and note these drums or whatever is behind them have absolutely no bearing on anything else; the player who introduced them knows this and is just looking to do some head-bashing before what she fears might be another tedious round of diplomacy in the next town)
Leaving aside the question of where the player gets the authority to narrate the occurence of the drum beats, this sounds like an episode of play without any clear direction.

So it's already a long way from how I tend to approach RPGing.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why do you say this?

Maybe the PCs fail, and the next thing that happens is that the secret door they failed to find opens and a horde of goblins pours out of it.

In post #1327 you said this...

In the Adventure Burner, Luke Crane discusses the players checking Architecture to see whether their PCs discover a secret door into a citadel they wish to infiltrate. The failure of the check estalishes (among other things) that there is no secret door to be discovered.

The roll failure determined that there was no secret door. If the roll had succeeded, there would have been one.

Hordes of goblins can't come out of a secret door that the roll established was not there. That would be going against the established fiction. I supposed you could have the goblins come out of a secret door that the party didn't look for, but that's not the PCs failing to find the door, because they didn't look for it. Had they looked prior to the goblins, they would have found it, or it wouldn't have been there for the goblins to exit.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This says nothing about whether the PCs are proactive or reactive. Nor does it say anything about the gameworld. I am talking about the participants in the game, not the events that occur within the fiction.
Where I'm talking about both.

If the stuff is already in the GM's notes, it's not ensuing. It's already there.
But you as player don't know that, if I'm doing it right, so how can it matter or make any difference to the at-the-time play experience?

My own view is that the players watching the GM act out a conflict between two NPCs does not make for good RPGing.
True, so here's a better example: let's use the same scenario, but instead of the PCs being the ones at the dinner table outing the advisor we'll have that be that's a group of NPCs (or a second played party in the same game?) and our actual PCs instead have heard rumours that something big might be in the wind at this dinner and have spent all day carefully infiltrating into the Baron's keep so they can spy on the dinner. When the dinner starts they've made it to a hidden chamber with a small lookout over the main hall - they maybe can't see much (they can see some of the (N)PC party but not the Baron or the advisor) but they can hear everything. For the next few hours they're going to be very engaged in what transpires but their best action will be to do nothing other than continue watching and listening...

Leaving aside the question of where the player gets the authority to narrate the occurence of the drum beats, this sounds like an episode of play without any clear direction.
Why does it sound like there's no clear direction - they'd done their diplomacy in town one and needed to make their (somewhat dangerous) way to town two to report back on what had transpired in town one...until someone left-turned it. And if it's a game where the fiction is co-authored by the players and DM (or completely authored by the players, with the DM merely reacting to what they do) then narration of the drum beats would be very much in play.

It doesn't have unified direction, to be sure, but that's different...and a risk: when there's 5 people able to drive the bus instead of one you risk having the bus try to go 5 directions at once. I'm that guy. Many of the people I game with are also "that guy-or-gal". If the game seems to be drifting and-or going to the action isn't generating much action and the game allows me to author in something different? In it goes! Hence, drums start pounding in the distance...

Now whether the rest of the party go along with it or not is of course an open question, which would need to be roleplayed out. Maybe we don't go after the drums. Maybe we do. Maybe we come back to them after reporting into town two...

Lanefan
 

Imaro

Legend

Examples of how this could be done would be great...

The Blossome are Falling has Honour for BW. As far as Sanity is concerned, there is the Steel mechanic, the Corruption mechanic, and other options could easily be created using those as guidelines, and the ideas presented in the Magic and Monster Burners.

I don't find you citing a different game and stating something could be created as an especially strong argument for flexibility, especially when I am speaking to things found in the corebooks for 5e.

There are multiple considerations:

(1) Artha is earned in all sorts of ways that relate to Beliefs, Instincts and Traits: manifesting them in play; having them cause trouble in play; dramatically exemplifying them; dramatically departing from them.

Hmm... Just as Inspiration per the DMG is earned in all sorts of ways related to Traits, Ideals, Bonds and Flaws: manifesting them in play; having them cause trouble in play; dramatically exemplifying them and (if the DM so chooses per the DMG) dramatically departing from them.

(21) The dice pool system means that probability spreads are very different from D&D. If you boost DCs in 5e then some tasks become unattainable.

as I understand it BW (going from the gold edition here so correct me if it's different in the edition you use) also has unattainable tasks where more successes are needed than the character has available dice to beat the obstacles. So why is this a problem in D&D but not in BW?

(3) Say 'yes' based on dramatic/pacing consideratins rather than an ingame causal assessment of whether or not success is uncertain means that ability ratings don't strictly correlate to success rates.

D&D also has say yes...

Burning Wheel Gold Edition PG. 13 said:
When To Roll

...You make tests during dramatic moments, when the outcome is uncertain...

This is the same determiner of when to roll as D&D 5e... What exactly is the difference?

Inspiration has the limitation that it provides Advantage and hence doesn't stack with other sources of Advantage - therefore, especially in large quantities, potentially destablising other mechanical systems (and players rather than the GM handing it out doesn't seem to alleviate this issue); and turning into a bonus rather than a reroll compromises bounded accuracy.

It stacks with other bonuses (mostly plusses) that exist in D&D 5e so I'm unclear jow bonuses which are an actual part of the game... compromise bounded accuracy. It also doesn't destabilize other mechanical systems because it is a resource that can be used when necessary and kept when not...

As does BW: games can be focused on social conflict, combat, exploration, sword & sorcery hijinks, Dune (the Jihad: Burning Sands supplement, etc; with variant magic systems (eg Ars Magica-style "spontaneous" spell creation), various Emotional attributes, various races and lifepaths, etc.

And yet with all these different trappings BW is still a game focused on Beliefs, Instincts and Traits. There is no way around that. I'll ask again for the third (maybe fourth) time... can BW be played without a focus on these things?

Combat can be tactical (Fight!, Range and Cover), or not (Bloody Versus, Intent and Task), or switch back in forth in the same campaign if desired. Social conflict can be tactical and detailed (Duel of Wits) or not. There are many other options presented in the main book (the "Spokes" that contrast with the "Hub") and supplements. Eg Range and Cover can be used to adjudicate jousts, and skirmish-level or even mass combat. The skill system ranges from crafting to Logistics and Strategy, and the situations of play can be equally varied. And as Burning THACO shows, Beliefs can be player-chosen or focused on a GM's pre-authored situation.

It won't play like D&D; but, as I've said, D&D won't play like BW either.

Eh above I think the focus of BW, using Traits, Ideals, Flaws and Bonds can be encapsulated pretty easily in D&D using only the three corebooks... or you can focus on some thing elwe for the game to revlove around. BW on the other hand will always be a game focused around ideals, traits and beliefs... no matter what else is added, what setting it's dressed up in and so on...
 
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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
The reason I describe it as "GM-driven" and as driven by the GM's interests/concerns is because the world, the events in it, the reactions of the NPCs, the hooks, the possibilities, have all been authored by the GM (or taken by the GM from something someone else wrote).

Or, as I've stated before, taken from what the players have suggested, often off-hand, or it can be related to their backstories. A lot of what gets worked into the campaign is what the players have said in the past, they just don't usually realize it.

But the choices that are made ("prices are high", "everyone else holds firm on price", "rumours of war") are all made by the GM. And they do seem to steer the fiction in a certain direction - at least, they certainly steer it away easy access to silk.

And see, to me, they are made by the world. Just like AW states to "Turn it over to the NPCs" there is a brewing war in Calimshan, and as a logical result, the prices of Calishite goods is increasing. However, there are some merchants that are involved in smuggling, extortion, or other schemes, and locating one of them yields different results.

In addition, it could be, at least in part, the determination of a die roll.

In so far as the world looms large in play, and imposes constraints on and consequences for player action declarations for their PCs, it is the GM's vision of the world that seems to be paramount. The players, in the course of play, learn more about that. That is what I mean by "learning what is in the GM's notes". The player, by (say) having his/her PC looking around for the seller of silk at the the lowest price, is learning something about the GM's account/conception of the world. The shared fiction isn't being established in response to, and as part of the context of, the players declaring actions for their characters.

Some of it is in response to the actions of the players, some of it isn't. As I stated in other posts, like the one about illusionism, I have no problem changing something on the fly if that's more appropriate. While prepared material provides a foundation and framework for me to use, nothing is written in stone until it occurs in the campaign. Once the players have had that interaction, then there is something more that is known.

However, I approach it from a world-building and logical standpoint, not what might make an interesting story or scene in the moment. Because this is an ongoing campaign, with future ramifications for the player's other characters, I like to maintain an internal consistency.

Upthread of your post, I posted this about the role of the GM and player in BW (pp 268-69 (Revised); 551-52 (Gold)):

In Burning Wheel, it is the GM's job to interpret all of the varous intents of the players' actions and mesh them into a cohesive whole that fits within the context of the game. He's got to make sure that all the player wackiness abides by the rules. . . . Often this requires negotiating an action or intent until both player and GM are satisfied that it fits both the concept and the mood of the game. . . .

[T]he players . . . have duties . . . [to] offer hooks to their GM and the other players in the form of Beliefs, Instincts and Traits . . .​

The player offers the hooks. The GM responds to them. If there is uncertainty we talk (as I posted upthread, I am not interested in GMing blind). That's part of the force of Luke Crane's comparison of GMing Moldvay Basic to a cross between telephone and pictionary. In Basic the GM isn't talking to the players in that way, kibitzing with them, negotiating the framing with them. But in BW this is standard stuff. The GM isn't "guessing" or "interpreting" (I'm assuming we can put aside the philosophical questions of solipsism, other minds, etc in this context).

For me, at least, it's not about creating on the fly. It's about the context of and rationale for authoring the motivation. I prefer it to emerge from the play of the game - ie roughly, as an output; not an input.

And to me it's a bit different. Yes the players offer hooks, but I don't always incorporate those in the moment. I am, however, always reacting to the character's actions. Those actions have natural ramifications, based on the goals of the NPCs, or the many events outside of the character's control that are happening in the world. Why?

Because that's the way the world seems to work to me. If you're Elliot Ness going after Al Capone, you have your motivations, and Al has his. Yes, Al gains some new motivations because of your investigation, but in general his motivations are entirely independent from yours. And, at least early on, his motivations in relation to yours are probably more along the lines as orders to his goons to make you go away. They have motivations too, most of which are also unrelated to you. They are more closely tied to their selfish, greedy needs, their love of violence, their wish to move up in the organization, and/or not be "taken care of" by Capone or his men.

My "writing style" is to see where the story leads me, both within the campaign and offscreen. As soon as you create an NPC with a motivation and goals, it points to a certain direction. But then you place it in a world where there are other NPCs with motivations and goals, and things change. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about most of them, and in the majority of the cases, if it is a prewritten NPC, I probably don't consider what's happened until they do come into play. Now that I'm rereading the AW rules, it's not all that different from what's recommended there.

As a player, I think it's not that hard to tell when the GM is running the game based on his/her (pre-)conception of the fiction, rather than in response to the players' hooks.
My direct experience, since I use both, is that's it's not easy to tell the difference. At least to the players I've had. So I'm asking for more concrete evidence as to how you would be able to tell.

I've already posted this several times. Here it is again:

One of the players is a gamemaster whose job it is to keep track of the backstory, frame scenes according to dramatic needs (that is, go where the action is)​

By "going where the action is" I mean framing scenes according to dramatic need: ie picking up on the players' hooks.

But I do think it's good advice to GMs to (in general) avoid boring stuff. (Obviously what is boring is relative. As I posted upthread to [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], I find shopping for clothes boring in real life and boring in game also. I wouldn't suppose that's a universal view.)

All I'm saying is that you're the one who drew the inference from conflict to combat, and it's in your game, not mine that the players' response to an angry bear was to kill it.

Conflict doesn't have to equate to combat, and I also gave a number of examples of other options that could have occurred that were neither conflict nor combat.

I don't control the players, and they opted to fight, yes. But my point was, after following what is largely a default course of action for many D&D PCs, they learned something and it dramatically changed how they approached things going forward. It didn't have anything to do with the rest of the motivations or story arc at the time, it was just an encounter. But it did change the course of the story, because it changed the way the characters behaved in the future. It had a surprisingly large impact.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Leaving aside the question of where the player gets the authority to narrate the occurence of the drum beats, this sounds like an episode of play without any clear direction.

So it's already a long way from how I tend to approach RPGing.

Why does it sound like there's no clear direction - they'd done their diplomacy in town one and needed to make their (somewhat dangerous) way to town two to report back on what had transpired in town one...until someone left-turned it. And if it's a game where the fiction is co-authored by the players and DM (or completely authored by the players, with the DM merely reacting to what they do) then narration of the drum beats would be very much in play.

It doesn't have unified direction, to be sure, but that's different...and a risk: when there's 5 people able to drive the bus instead of one you risk having the bus try to go 5 directions at once. I'm that guy. Many of the people I game with are also "that guy-or-gal". If the game seems to be drifting and-or going to the action isn't generating much action and the game allows me to author in something different? In it goes! Hence, drums start pounding in the distance...

Now whether the rest of the party go along with it or not is of course an open question, which would need to be roleplayed out. Maybe we don't go after the drums. Maybe we do. Maybe we come back to them after reporting into town two...

Lanefan

I think this pretty much sums up the divide between you two (and me and @pemerton). That doesn't mean that I disagree with everything @pemerton presents (far from it, and I don't think you do either).

But basically different people enjoy different aspects of RPGs. Some relish the role-playing, while others are munchkinizers. Some of us like the "boring" stuff that happens between the exciting encounters, and acknowledging that any moment in a character's life can be a potential defining moment. Choosing to skip those potential moments writes a different type of story.

If there's no clear direction, that's the player's fault, not the DM's. Unless you want the DM writing the fiction, then it's the DM's fault.

The reality is, I think it's the responsibility of the players and the DM. I'm not a fan of what I'd call an "extreme sandbox" approach where the DM doesn't provide any input. Everything is location-based, usually predetermined, or random. There are no DM plots, behind the scenes or otherwise.

While my approach seems similar, the key difference is that there are a lot of things that happen in the world that might have an impact on the PCs that the DM does create. It's not just aimless wandering from place-to-place, there are schemes and plots going on around the PCs all the time. It's just a question as to whether they decide to involve themselves with those.

Essentially, they can choose to aimlessly wander if they want to. That's fine. But they aren't doing it because I didn't provide them any hooks. Likewise, it shouldn't be because I'm not willing to allow them to go "off-adventure" and follow their own path.
 

pemerton

Legend
The roll failure determined that there was no secret door. If the roll had succeeded, there would have been one.

Hordes of goblins can't come out of a secret door that the roll established was not there.
But the absence of a secret door isn't the only possible failure narration for a failed check to find a secret door. It depends on the skill tested, on the framing of the check, on the motivations/goals that lie behind the check, etc.

Here's the example I was referring to (Adventure Burner, pp 304-5; Codex, pp 210-11):

Pete: "I'm going to find a secret entrance into the Citadel of the Unconquered Sun."

Thor (as GM): "No way. We already established that this keep is the strongest in the entire kingdom. You failed that Citadel-wise test way back at the start of the campaign. . . ."

[O]nce it's established that the Citadel of the Unconquered Sun has no secret entrances and the only means of ingress is the front gate, that remains true until the players dig their own tunnel or the GM introduces a situatio in which a foreign army lays siege to the place and sends in sappers.​

But establishing that there are no secret entrances, because it's the strongest keep in the kingdom, isn't the only possible failure result. It makes sense as a failure result for Citadel-wise; but what if the attempt, at the start of the campaign, had been a test on Rumour-wise (to learn rumours of secret entrances)?

Or suppose that a player delcares a Perception check to look for a secret door at a dead end. And s/he declares that s/he (in character) is searching carefully (so as to get a bonus die). And the check fails, meaning that the GM is licensed to introduce a significant time-based complication: so the GM might narrate, "As you are carefully tapping the wall, listening for hollow places, you hear boots coming along the corridor - it sounds like the iron-shod boots of goblins! And then the wall in front of you opens - there is a secret door, with goblins on the other side of it. It looks like you're just in time for a rendezvous of forces!"

As I said, a failure to find X can be for any number of reasons other than the absence of X. Upthread, for instance, I noted that a possible failure for a check to find a vessel to catch blood in might be that the character notices the vessel just in time to see it knocked to the ground by the other struggling characters, and smash on the floor.

It depends on the context and significance of the check (and the GM's imagination, obviously).
 

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