Surprise round question

Maxperson · May 21, 2017

Hriston said:
Do you propose resolving a player's action declaration to have his or her PC go to sleep by calling for a CON check in which s/he has to roll under the DC in order to stay asleep successfully in the case of a disturbance? I don't see how this has anything to do with CON as a measure of endurance or health, or why a character's CON score would have anything to do with how deeply they sleep. The reasoning behind resolving an action declaration to go without sleep with a CON check is that the character is resisting fatigue and the urge to sleep through his or her physical endurance. Once asleep, I think CON ceases to play a roll. A low CON doesn't keep you asleep.

Why would I call for a check for something where the outcome isn't in doubt. Just like I don't call for a roll to wake up on a normal morning. Only when the outcome is in doubt, like when something unusual is happening and I need to know if a PC wakes up will I call for a roll.

While you may think that CON being used doesn't make sense, I and others disagree with that. For decades CON checks have been used by pretty much every DM I've played with and not one player in those groups has ever had an issue with it. I doubt we're alone in this.

That's if you wake up. If you hadn't woken up, you wouldn't have known about the barking dog, yet you're asking a player to roll an ability check to see if the barking dog wakes his or her PC up. That's very clunky if you ask me.

The awareness is still there, you just didn't roll well enough to wake up.

Then the only way to wake up in the game is by DM fiat, which is how I do it. (Excepting, of course, the ways of awakening someone given in the sleep spell.)

That's incorrect. The DM decides what things require ability checks and which abilities are to be used, so the game does in fact provide rules for waking up via ability checks.

Hriston · May 21, 2017

Caliban said:
If the DM is choosing to use Perception, then it actually is a skill/ability check. In fact, not in form. In this case, to see if your sleeping mind notices the noise/smell and wakes up.

I don't know. Maybe it's just a playstyle thing, but it seems like a roll to be made behind the DM screen. I don't see much of a point in having the player roll for something that the PC is unaware of and isn't trying to do. What your sleeping mind does might as well be involuntary.

Caliban · May 21, 2017

Hriston said:
I don't know. Maybe it's just a playstyle thing, but it seems like a roll to be made behind the DM screen. I don't see much of a point in having the player roll for something that the PC is unaware of and isn't trying to do. What your sleeping mind does might as well be involuntary.

The roll is to see if they ARE aware of it. That's kind of what Perception is for. Since this isn't covered by the rules, the DC is arbitrary. I use DC 10 in most cases.

What's the point of making it behind the screen? It's not like the Player isn't aware that a combat is occurring.

Ovinomancer · May 21, 2017

Hriston said:
I don't know. Maybe it's just a playstyle thing, but it seems like a roll to be made behind the DM screen. I don't see much of a point in having the player roll for something that the PC is unaware of and isn't trying to do. What your sleeping mind does might as well be involuntary.

That's because you're backwards on this. The sleeper isn't rolling you wake up, the assassin is rolling to not wake the sleeper up. This isn't a challenge of the seller's innate ability to wake up, but a challenge of the assassin's innate ability and training to not wake the sleeper until the knife goes home. Why are you punishing the assassin? Set a DC for the assassin's challenge and roll. The seller's passive perception could be a useful guide for setting that DC.

That said, if I'm sending an assassin against my players, the check to see if the assassin wakes up the PC is after everything else has gone wrong because I'm going to give them lots of opportunity to protect themselves before that. The far more likely use of this in my game is the players sneaking up of sleeping enemies.

Hriston · May 21, 2017

Caliban said:
The roll is to see if they ARE aware of it.

No, I meant that the PC is unaware of the "effort" the roll represents. If the PC isn't aware of this "attempted action" then why is the player?

What's the point of making it behind the screen?

Because it's a tool the DM is using to determine something about the situation the PC finds him or herself in that's outside of the knowledge and control of the PC. I don't mean that the roll needs to be kept secret, just that I think of it as a roll "on the DM side of the screen" rather than a roll the player makes because it corresponds to something the PC is trying to do.

It's not like the Player isn't aware that a combat is occurring.

Not once you've asked the player for a roll to see if the PC wakes up in time to join the combat, no, but meanwhile the PC is oblivious to the imminent attack. That's why you're rolling, right? I like to keep player knowledge closer to character knowledge, and I think the mechanics as written do a fine job of dealing with information that's hidden from the player because it's unknown by the PC. That's why the DM exists as a separate function from the other players after all, to deal with such hidden information. But I also think it's a playstyle issue, and I can see how you might prefer a game where the players can shift out of actor stance in certain situations.

Caliban · May 21, 2017

Hriston said:
No, I meant that the PC is unaware of the "effort" the roll represents. If the PC isn't aware of this "attempted action" then why is the player?

Why wouldn't they be? This is a game. Players are aware of all sorts of things their characters aren't. In this case, it's not like the player can act on the knowledge if their character doesn't wake up.

In the specific case of an assassin, you've already said you'd have the character automatically wake up when initiative is rolled, no checks needed. So you give your players a "danger sense" that never fails. And in that very specific scenario, I can see the sense of it - just informing the player that their character "woke up dead" isn't much fun.

(And really, if you don't let them automatically wake up they probably won't - a well prepared assassin can be damn near undetectable. Between invisibility, pass without trace, boots of elvenkind, Expertise in Stealth, a high Dex - you can easily achieve a +20 or more on the roll, with advantage. Although if the party has a cleric who can raise them, it could be a way of sending a very bloody message. "Piss of the king by randomly killing his guards, he sends the Royal Assassin. Even if you are publicly honored as heroes.")

But I'm talking about a more common scenario - some PC's are asleep while others are fighting. No one is trying to be stealthy. I like to give the sleeping characters a chance to wake up on their own. It really doesn't matter who makes the roll - the player is going to be aware combat is occurring because they can see and hear the other players rolling dice and talking about combat related stuff.

I'm sorry, but arguing about who should make the roll just seems like a meaningless point of contention.

Hriston · May 21, 2017

Ovinomancer said:
That's because you're backwards on this. The sleeper isn't rolling you wake up, the assassin is rolling to not wake the sleeper up. This isn't a challenge of the seller's innate ability to wake up, but a challenge of the assassin's innate ability and training to not wake the sleeper until the knife goes home. Why are you punishing the assassin? Set a DC for the assassin's challenge and roll. The seller's passive perception could be a useful guide for setting that DC.

I said up-thread that if I thought circumstances were such that there was uncertainty as to whether the approaching assassin would awaken the sleeping target that I would set a DC for a DEX check from the assassin, and that using the target's passive Perception score as the DC was as acceptable a method as any for the DM to set the DC. I also think, however, that picking a number out of a hat is equally acceptable, and that the main thing is that the DM is setting the DC by whatever method s/he so chooses.

If I, as DM, decide that the assassin's declared action to attack removes that uncertainty, how is it punishing to the assassin? Either way, the target is surprised. The only real difference I see is if the target wins initiative, it can use a reaction on the assassin's turn if it has already woken up (my way), whereas if the target is still asleep it's deprived of its reaction because it's incapacitated. Is that how I'm punishing the assassin? Because I see giving the assassin a chance to fail to sneak up on a sleeping target, which should be an easy task for a competent assassin, as far more punishing than letting the target use a reaction once it has recovered from its surprise.

Maxperson · May 21, 2017

Hriston said:
No, I meant that the PC is unaware of the "effort" the roll represents. If the PC isn't aware of this "attempted action" then why is the player?

You've never been asleep and had to make an effort to wake up and fight past the sleep paralysis? I have, and I was aware of it.

Not once you've asked the player for a roll to see if the PC wakes up in time to join the combat, no, but meanwhile the PC is oblivious to the imminent attack. That's why you're rolling, right? I like to keep player knowledge closer to character knowledge, and I think the mechanics as written do a fine job of dealing with information that's hidden from the player because it's unknown by the PC. That's why the DM exists as a separate function from the other players after all, to deal with such hidden information. But I also think it's a playstyle issue, and I can see how you might prefer a game where the players can shift out of actor stance in certain situations.

I have to ask. What's the point of rolling secretly to see if a PC wakes up or not in order to keep the player out of the loop for a few more seconds?

It's...

DM: <secretly rolls behind the screen> You are attacked while asleep and fail to wake up before the strike lands!

vs...

DM: Roll a 20 sided to see if you wake up.

Player:<rolls a d20 and fails>

DM: You are attacked while asleep and fail to wake up before the strike lands!

Is that few seconds really worth taking the roll for the survival of a PC out of the player's hands?

KahlessNestor · May 30, 2017

Maxperson said:
You've never been asleep and had to make an effort to wake up and fight past the sleep paralysis? I have, and I was aware of it.

I have to ask. What's the point of rolling secretly to see if a PC wakes up or not in order to keep the player out of the loop for a few more seconds?

It's...

DM: <secretly rolls behind the screen> You are attacked while asleep and fail to wake up before the strike lands!

vs...

DM: Roll a 20 sided to see if you wake up.

Player:<rolls a d20 and fails>

DM: You are attacked while asleep and fail to wake up before the strike lands!

Is that few seconds really worth taking the roll for the survival of a PC out of the player's hands?