Essentials : What to Use and What to Lose? Can of Worms

Tony Vargas

Legend
Its a rule that might work pretty well in 5e. You could use this rule, and make clerics use a temple too, and that would definitely make them think twice before casting... There'd still be the question of how to limit Warlocks and Sorcerers, as they're flavored as more inherent casters, but I'm sure something can be devised.
In the context of 5e, prep and slots are separate. Limiting the prepped/neo-Vancian casters (Cleric, Druid, & Wizard) to prepping in a temple/grove/non-portable-spellbook, would actually be fine, they'd presumably still recover slots after a long rest, compared to that, Sorcerers, Bards & Warlocks wouldn't need any further nerfing. Prep would still be an advantage, just not on a daily basis.

It's funny how much room there is to cut down 5e neo-Vancian casters without actually rendering them strictly inferior. ;P
 

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Igwilly

First Post
I thought something similar, too. In order to gain spells back, spellcasters just cannot rest and study/pray anywhere: they must be in very calm, stable places. Basically, they just cannot do it in a dungeon or out on the wilderness: they must return to an inn, or laboratory, or altar, anything like that. “Per day” spells then become “per travel spells”. This can be useful to limit the high number of spell slots in older editions.
Although, reading 2e, it implies this way, but apparently, the “per day” interpretation was more accepted.
Another option, perhaps together with the above, is the idea of “save points”: spells like Alarm, Rope Trick, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, among others, just cannot be cast anywhere: we need special places for that; protection magic circles on the ground, which can receive those spells; or safe places like inns and such. Again, the idea is to create a “save point” system and control where players will rest.
Using them can get rid of the so-called 5-minute-work-day problem.
About Neo-Vancian…
I don’t know why some people call it that way. They are very different magic systems. 5e spellcasting is simply 3e Sorcerer with preparing (giving him even more flexibility); or, more directly speaking, 3e Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine). I call it the Charge system. I call the classic (pre-4e) Vancian as the Slot system.
The Sorcerer had a place in 3e: with the Wizard and the Cleric as slot system, and easier and simpler way is represented by the Sorcerer, as charge system. However, everyone being charge-based? Not my cup of tea.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
If we are diverging on to alternative limitation systems for magic and similar a new thread could be better. We could then discuss my price of power concepts which include backlash effects and extended casting where you perform a preparatory action and similar which then use the action economy as the foundation for performing more empowered things in a battle scene whether one is martial or magical in flavor or not.


Speaking of Martial or Magical... and essentials I must have heard it before but I just registered that the Skald introduced explicit mixed martial and arcane in the same class
AND the martial effects are often speech and song oriented... this in the same book that we get the defender / striker Berzerker, and a flying race.

Is there a good analysis of the end result of the pixies flying? I have heard mention it was not "balanced"
 

In the context of 5e, prep and slots are separate. Limiting the prepped/neo-Vancian casters (Cleric, Druid, & Wizard) to prepping in a temple/grove/non-portable-spellbook, would actually be fine, they'd presumably still recover slots after a long rest, compared to that, Sorcerers, Bards & Warlocks wouldn't need any further nerfing. Prep would still be an advantage, just not on a daily basis.

It's funny how much room there is to cut down 5e neo-Vancian casters without actually rendering them strictly inferior. ;P

Well, I'm not PRESUMING anything. They could be restricted to recovering slots when they study too! In fact I'd think that would be the preferable course, since you are pretty much correct that 'preparing' in the peculiar 5e terminology is a fairly minor thing. I think even that would definitely put SOME limits on flexibility though. Frankly I think getting rid of 5e's, IMHO badly advised, version of rituals would be nice too.
 

Is there a good analysis of the end result of the pixies flying? I have heard mention it was not "balanced"

Meh, pixies get flying with an altitude limit of 1 square. That means they can fly as high as they want, but at the end of their action they will fall back to a height of 1 square above the ground. Given that they generally won't be able to fly more than at most maybe 10 squares in one action it means they're FAIRLY limited. Its still beneficial in many ways, they can cross ground without triggering traps, they can fly over a lot of small obstacles and terrain, etc. They can reach low ledges and windows and whatnot. For a racial ability its outright better than most (though TBH Devas, Eladrin, and Elves have some pretty kick ass racials, just to name a couple, and Fey Step is very close to as good as pixie flight). Pixies also get burdened with being tiny, which does kind mess up your ability to fight with weapons quite a bit. It doesn't 'make up for' flight, but on the whole pixies aren't overwhelmingly good. Given that each race in 4e has its distinct niches they really don't create a problem. In absolute terms they make very nice wizards, etc and can get away with a few nice tricks. I think they pretty convincingly demonstrate that races could have been a bit less strictly limited in 4e and things wouldn't have exactly gone bad.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
If we are diverging on to alternative limitation systems for magic and similar a new thread could be better. We could then discuss my price of power concepts which include backlash effects and extended casting where you perform a preparatory action and similar which then use the action economy as the foundation for performing more empowered things in a battle scene whether one is martial or magical in flavor or not.
Sorry, we were even getting into 5e, which has it's own forum, thankyouvermuch. I'll stop.

Speaking of Martial or Magical... and essentials I must have heard it before but I just registered that the Skald introduced explicit mixed martial and arcane in the same class
AND the martial effects are often speech and song oriented... this in the same book that we get the defender / striker Berzerker, and a flying race.
Yep. HotFW was probably the high point post-Essentials. The Berserker and Skald are mostly fine. Both suffered relative to real 4e classes for a lack of power choices, that is, for their martial powers, but the hybridizing of Source and Role worked nicely, and they were otherwise coherent AEDU designs.

Is there a good analysis of the end result of the pixies flying? I have heard mention it was not "balanced"
The Pixie's flight is decidedly too much at very low level, and a bit of a let-down by Epic as less restricted flight becomes more and more common. I say this based on running a campaign that started as an Encounters season in 2011 and is still going at level 22 - and has included multiple pixies the whole time. Right now, I'm down to some pixie Thieves - I shudder to think what would have happened if the Pixie Witch Vile Scholar had stuck with the campaign... though, I do miss the Pixie Swordmage.
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The Pixie's flight is decidedly too much at very low level

I commented it reminded me of having a Gorilla race with a climb rate of 6 and 60 foot jump distance and the ability to ignore difficult terrain

ALL with complete reliability... but I have missed stuff I am certain.
 

The Pixie's flight is decidedly too much at very low level, and a bit of a let-down by Epic as less restricted flight becomes more and more common. I say this based on running a campaign that started as an Encounters season in 2011 and is still going at level 22 - and has included multiple pixies the whole time. Right now, I'm down to some pixie Thieves - I shudder to think what would have happened if the Pixie Witch Vile Scholar had stuck with the campaign... though, I do miss the Pixie Swordmage.
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OK, I gotta ask, how can a pixie swordmage function? I mean you have to provoke an OA just to get within melee range, it has to pretty much SUCK.

Pixie Witch Vile Scholar has admittedly excellent thematics!

Truthfully, the flight thing is sort of almost immaterial. I mean, its no worse than Fey Step at low levels, and at high levels pixies will likely just grab something that gives them a better type of flight. I seem to recall there's a feat that lets them get rid of the altitude limit or something? I forget exactly, but there's plenty of paragon items that will let them REALLY fly anyway, and they can still retain the limited flying for those few instances where it works and saves them from burning a charge or something.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
OK, I gotta ask, how can a pixie swordmage function? I mean you have to provoke an OA just to get within melee range, it has to pretty much SUCK.

I am pretty sure it was worked out so they didnt have that issue

Wee warrior gives them a reach of 1 instead of 00

I picture it as darting attacks AND would have called it that explicitly ;)


(AND it does incorporate a few other negative stuff)
 
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