Handling terrain powers in play

Manbearcat said:

No questions​?

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Well, since you ask....

Manbearcat said:

b) [snip] what is complication/cost of failure (Healing Surge worth of damage, or some sort of control effect UEoYNT).

c) AoE? Subtract 25 % of expression budget.

d) Tier-Equivalent Control Rider? Subtract 12.5 - 25 % of expression budget (depending on if weak AW or legit E rider).

e) Miss and/or Effect? Subtract 12.5 % - 25 % of expression budget.

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Would you mind elaborating on and illustrating the points above?

darkbard said:

Well, since you ask....



Would you mind elaborating on and illustrating the points above?

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Sure. Hopefully this helps.

Say a Heroic Tier Fighter and his allies are sitting on one side of a rectangular table while their opposition are sitting on the other with a couple of mooks standing behind them. Lets say a Social Skill Challenge has just ended in failure (negotiation breakdown or something) and suddenly chairs are being shoved back and weapons are being drawn.

The player of the Fighter says "I roar and grab the underside of the table and flip it on them!"

Alright.

1) So Heroic Tier and lets say the Limited Damage Expression you're using equals 20 damage total.
2) We go with Athletics High DC (I typically go there with Limited Use Expressions and Medium for At-Wills).
3) We discuss failure and go with a simple one. If the PC fails Athletics check, he gives up Combat Advantage UEoYNT.
4) The implementation will be:

a) Blast 3. Normal AoE, so we step back 5 damage from the budget (25% of 20 = 5). Now we're at 15.
b) Prone rider. Normal rider for a limited use effect in this tier of play. Step back 25 % again so now we're at 10.
c) Half Damage on miss. Half damage on a control-based attack (AoE + control rider) is pretty insignificant. If we were putting a control rider on this on a miss (like Slowed), then I'd step it back a full 12.5 % for a -2 to final damage expression. However, I'm only going to go with 1 in this case. So now we're at 9.
d) Difficult Terrain in that Blast 3. If you feel this gives the PCs a significant advantage in the scenario, then step it down a full 12.5 %. If you don't feel it gives a real advantage and just changes the battlefieldt, then leave it at 9. I feel it gives some advantage to the PCs, so I'm just going to step it down one to 8.

So we end up with:

TURN THE TABLE(S...)! Limited Use Terrain
Standard Action - Creatures in Blast 3
Skill: Athletics Hard DC (or give up CA UEoYNT).
Attack: Level + 3 vs Reflex
Damage: 1d10 +2 and prone.
Miss: Half damage
Effect: Blast 3 is DT.

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Brilliant. It does help, significantly.

Manbearcat said:

2) We go with Athletics High DC (I typically go there with Limited Use Expressions and Medium for At-Wills).

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Do you ever use Ability checks? Or do you keep it to a Skill check?

3) We discuss failure and go with a simple one. If the PC fails Athletics check, he gives up Combat Advantage UEoYNT.

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Can you provide some further examples of penalties for failure, beyond granting CA?

a) Blast 3. Normal AoE, so we step back 5 damage from the budget (25% of 20 = 5). Now we're at 15.
b) Prone rider. Normal rider for a limited use effect in this tier of play. Step back 25 % again so now we're at 10.
c) Half Damage on miss. Half damage on a control-based attack (AoE + control rider) is pretty insignificant. If we were putting a control rider on this on a miss (like Slowed), then I'd step it back a full 12.5 % for a -2 to final damage expression. However, I'm only going to go with 1 in this case. So now we're at 9.
d) Difficult Terrain in that Blast 3. If you feel this gives the PCs a significant advantage in the scenario, then step it down a full 12.5 %. If you don't feel it gives a real advantage and just changes the battlefieldt, then leave it at 9. I feel it gives some advantage to the PCs, so I'm just going to step it down one to 8.

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Aha! This part had confused me. I wasn't sure if you were speaking of the EL XP budget here or what, but this makes perfect sense now. I like your forumlae!

@darkbard

1) I never use Ability Checks for anything. 4e's Skills are broad/open descriptor enough to cover everything (I play systems much lighter than 4e) and I personally feel Ability Checks deprotagonize the players a bit.

2) Healing Surge worth of damage and any At-Will rider (Slowed, Can't Shift, Slide 2 - my choice where, No Immediate Action...those are the typical ones we use).

EDIT - clarity in 1

Manbearcat said:

1) I never use Ability Checks for anything. 4e's Skills are broad/open descriptor enough to cover everything (I play systems much lighter than 4e) and I personally feel Ability Checks deprotagonize the players a bit.

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Even when discussing removing the perception skill and diplomacy skill ... in favor of using other base skills with wisdom or charisma, I saw no reason to bring up a fall back Ability Check.

Garthanos said:

Even when discussing removing the perception skill and diplomacy skill ... in favor of using other base skills with wisdom or charisma, I saw no reason to bring up a fall back Ability Check.

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Aye. The only place I can see where an Ability Check could provide some use is in negating the check penalty for armor. But this would only be useful if the character was untrained in the appropriate skill (Athletics or those others that acquire armor penalties), or the PC would still be better off with the Skill Check plus penalty over Ability Check without penalty, just from a mechanical perspective.