D&D 5E class mastery

Is the book right or should players be able to multiclass to the same class


  • Poll closed .

Yaarel

He Mage
If I understand the original post correctly, then there is a desire to access more than one archetype/subclass from within the same class. For example, a Druid character who accesses features from both Moon Circle and Land Circle.

So far the best solution seems to be to create a feat, that fully or partially duplicates the feature from the other archetype, depending on how powerful that other feature is.
 

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FarBeyondC

Explorer
In the PHB it said you can't pick the same class twice. But what if someone wanted to totally master a class. This discussion took place between me and four other local DM's that our high school uses. In the end, we ended up with no solutions only to end up where we started. Yet I still can't help but wonder why it is we can't multiclass to the same class and just take a separate archetype, and leave out the basic skills cause the character already learned it.

Why not just take all (or multiple) subclasses simultaneously, then? A (admittedly cursory) look at the current subclasses suggests to me that taking more than one subclass at once would grant you more versatility, but not all that much more power (other than from the increased versatility) compared to the default.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=6874838]Senshi-shi[/MENTION] If you want a character able to take multiple sub-classes/archetypes from the same class (e.g. a Fighter who is both a Battle Master & a Purple Dragon Knight from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide), you might take a page from the Dragon Age games. IIRC, those present the option of taking a second specialization at higher level.

Translating to D&D, it would be something like – assuming a Fighter – at higher level getting to choose another martial archetype and gaining its corresponding 3rd-level feature(s). Then you'd progress from there. An example...

Your Fighter PC becomes a Battle Master at 3rd level, gaining Combat Superiority & Student of War. At 7th level you gain Know Your Enemy. At 10th level you can either gain Improved Combat Superiority OR take a new martial archetype.

Let's say you take a new martial archetype – the Purple Dragon Knight. You do NOT gain Improved Combat Superiority. Instead you gain Rallying Cry.

When you reach 15th level, you can either now gain Improved Combat Superiority (the Battle Master's 10th level feature you previously forewent) OR Purple Envoy (the Purple Dragon Knight's 7th level feature).

Let's say you take Purple Envoy.

Then, advancing this system into epic-level play, as an Epic Boon you could choose to advance one of your martial archetypes to the next feature-granting level. For example, you might spend an Epic Boon to take Improved Combat Superiority OR Inspiring Surge (the Purple Dragon Knight's 10th level feature).

This system is a bit more conservative than what you're envisioning, but postpones any potential rules exploits between archetypes/sub-classes that were not playtested until epic-level play.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
You are close to the idea but very far. Each class is leveled up separate depending on how you want to make your character as he levels up, like how a lv12 human can be lv8 druid, and a lv4 monk. What I'm getting at is the same concept, but you only get the basic features once.
Ok so you said 3 archtypes well that means there are four tables. The main and three archtypes. you can only get the abilities from each of them once so the main table can only be done once, so say you have a lv7 druid circle of the land who is also lv 5 in circle of the moon. he only gets up to level 7 on the main table but get his 12d8+con hp and get the befits of his circles at the same time.
As for stopping at level 20, you're right when it comes down to just the first arche type but if you wanted to master it you would need to be level 17 to get the first archtype done, then level 34 for the second, and 51 for the third, and another 3 for the main table this bring you to level 54, and now you can say that you mastered the class.
And just to make this clear. if you think this is nuts. it is. your dm will have to constantly modify the baddies and goals even be unfair, but as it says in the monster manual those are "base stats"

I don't think it's nuts per se, but it does involve a lot of dead levels where you don't gain any real benefits for leveling (beyond hp). Assuming you allow another character to multiclass normally (ie, at level 54 he might be a Paladin 20 / Sorcerer 20 / Warlock 14) the normal multiclass character will be much more powerful than the guys specializing in their existing class. Similarly, a Druid Land 7 / Moon 5 is not going to compare favorably against a Paladin 12, because while he has the hp of a 12th level character his features are only a little better than those of a 7th level druid.

In my opinion, making the player take all those dead levels makes the cost too great. On the other hand, just letting them take the archetype levels is probably too strong (ie, a 3rd level Druid who is Land 2 / Moon 2). Under the latter, an assassin rogue could dip one level of arcane trickster to gain all of the trickster's spellcasting progression for the relatively low cost of one level (Shield alone makes this worth it).
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] has a good idea, although I wouldn't allow it to work quite like he describes. The reason is that many classes have utility levels built into the archetypes. For example, allowing a 6th level Totem Warrior Barbarian to take Frenzy instead of Aspect of the Beast is arguably overpowered.

The simplest solution would be to allow characters to gain archetype abilities via epic boons. So a rouge assassin 20 could gain the arcane trickster's spellcasting and legerdemain features at "21st" level, magical ambush at "22nd", versatile trickster at "23rd", and spell thief at "24th". He can master all three archetypes by "28th" level. While archetype abilities are arguably better than many epic boons, since everyone has access to these options it should largely balance out. Epic D&D is fairly wahoo anyway, with balance being less of a significant factor than it is at low levels.

While it is isn't exactly what you're looking, I created the following feat for my own game. I haven't had any issues with it, although I've only had it used twice (once by a druid [land/moon] and once by a wizard [conjuration/evocation]). It is, however, rather complex and requires some DM adjudication.

Prodigy
You are a master of two paths and your ability to think outside the box and innate affinity to your class has allowed you to learn to blend training from more than one subclass of your class. You gain the following benefits:

You gain proficiency in one additional skill or tool of your choice from your class list.

Choose a second subclass from a class you already have levels in and that has more than one subclass. Doing so grants you the following benefits:
When you gain a new feature from your subclass after taking this feat, you may choose which of your subclasses to gain features from. (You do not gain the benefits of both.) You are considered to be of that subclass until the next level at which your subclass grants a feature (this pertains to abilities the subclass grants in between feature levels).

For example, a Druid could become both a Land and a Moon druid. At 2nd level, you could choose to gain either the Circle of the Land features (Bonus Cantrip and Natural Recovery) or the Circle of the Moon Features (Combat Wild Shape and the 2nd level benefits of Circle Forms). If you choose Land druid, you also gain Circle Spells at levels 3rd and 5th. At 6th level, you can again choose between Land (Land’s Stride) and Moon (Primal Strike and the 6th level benefits of Circle Forms). If you choose Land at 6th level, you will also gain the 7th and 9th level Circle Spells. At 10th level you can choose between Nature’s Ward and Elemental Wild Shape, and at 14th level you may choose between Nature’s Sanctuary and Thousand Forms.

Let’s assume you are playing a Druid with this feat and select Circle of the Moon at 2nd level. You gain Combat Wild Shape and Circle Forms. Then, at 6th level, you choose Circle of the Land. You gain Land’s Stride and will gain the bonus spells at 7th and 9th level appropriate to the land type you chose. However, you are still limited to CR 1 beast shapes, since you have not reached 6th level as far as your Circle of the Moon features are concerned. At 10th level you take Circle of the Moon again and gain Elemental Wild Shape. Additionally, you can now assume the form of CR 2 beasts since you are effectively 6th level in the Circle of the Moon. At 13th level you gain the ability to become a CR 3 beast. At 14th level, if you choose Circle of the Land you gain Nature’s Sanctuary and your Wild Shape does not increase beyond CR 3. If you choose Circle of the Moon you gain Thousand Forms, and your Wild Shape CR increases to 4 at 16th level and 5 at 19th level.

As another example, a Fighter could choose to be both a Champion and Eldritch Knight. At 3rd level assume you choose Champion, gaining Improved Critical. At 7th level, you choose Eldritch Knight, gaining War Magic and Spellcasting. However, your spellcasting starts as per a 3rd level Eldritch Knight, because you were not an Eldritch Knight from levels 3-6, and therefore did not gain the benefits thereof. At 9th level, you will have the equivalent casting of a 5th level Eldritch Knight. Continuing on, at 10th level you take Champion, gaining Additional Fighting Style. Once again, because you are not an Eldritch Knight during this period, your Spellcasting will not improve from levels 10 to 14. At 15th level, you once again switch to Eldritch Knight, gaining Arcane Charge and improving your Spellcasting to the equivalent of a 6th level Eldritch Knight. At level 17, your Spellcasting will have improved to the equivalent of a level 8th level Eldritch Knight (allowing you to choose one spell from any school of magic, per your Spellcasting feature). If you choose Eldritch Knight at level 18, you gain Improved War Magic, and by 20th level you will be the equivalent of 11th level Eldritch Knight in Spellcasting ability. If you instead choose Champion at 18th level, you gain Survivor and your Spellcasting capabilities will remain the equivalent of an 8th level Eldritch Knight.
 


Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] has a good idea, although I wouldn't allow it to work quite like he describes. The reason is that many classes have utility levels built into the archetypes. For example, allowing a 6th level Totem Warrior Barbarian to take Frenzy instead of Aspect of the Beast is arguably overpowered.

I agree, which is why I limited the option to 10th level or higher, because in 5e D&D those sorts of utility levels in sub-classes are at lower levels (e.g. often 6th/7th). So you're required to take one utility level.

So what you describe wouldn't it an issue unless you were playing an epic-level game with 3+ subclasses, and at that point I don't think you need to worry about it.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Why not just take all (or multiple) subclasses simultaneously, then? A (admittedly cursory) look at the current subclasses suggests to me that taking more than one subclass at once would grant you more versatility, but not all that much more power (other than from the increased versatility) compared to the default.
Cleric would be a little painful with your 16 extra spells per level, but even that is ultimately a small power up, because you still have limited spell slots. Would be interesting, I'd try it.
 

seebs

Adventurer
I'd treat this as a post-20 thing. About every level-equivalent amount of adventuring, you get to add one more level of class features from subclasses of a class you already have at 20. Lowest-to-highest order for any subclass. But that doesn't totally solve things; for eldritch knight, you need a ton of levels of casting ability on top of the class feature.
 

cooperjer

Explorer
I've wondered about the same question and found it hard to balance the themes of mixing the class specializations. I would also use the specialization features as epic level boons. One additional idea that is similar is the mixing of subclass features with a different main class. This was presented in a UA some time back. I believe Mearls mixed sorcerer sub-class features with cleric main class or vise versa. This could also give you a different type of "expert in a field." If you had a mix of fighter and barbarian, or warlock and bard the character would play much different and possibly feel as though they are a different type of expert.
 

Mad_Jack

Legend
You might be able to cobble something together from 4E multi-classing: Require the character to burn a feat to "multi-class" into a second archetype. They gain the starting features of that archetype. The feat has the prerequisite of being at least an X level character and already having chosen an archetype in that class. It also gives them one additional skill or tool proficiency.
They can burn additional feats to gain the archetype's next ability (and any level-associated perks like additional maneuver dice, wild-shapes, spells, etc., up to that level). So a character who wanted to blow all (or most) of their ASI/feats on doing so could pretty much gain a full second archetype by the end-game levels.

Alternately, the "entrance" feat could allow them to gain the benefits of the second archetype at a level of (class level -X) so that they're always a certain number of levels behind... Most of the lower-level archetype abilities are going to end up as neat utility increases when acquired at higher levels rather than any sort of game changers.
 

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