Compiled 3.5 Revisions

hong · Jun 25, 2003

coyote6 said:
Bah! [waves hand dismissively] Bah!

I still don't like that change; Perform was fine as it was. Now, the would be Bob Hope of bards needs to spend points on 4 or 5 different skills, just for Perform. Nevermind having some skills that are actually useful to an adventurer. Makes those 6 skill pts/level go a lot less further.

And what is more, I cannot believe that they left out air guitar as a subcategory of Perform. This is shocking, you hear me, shocking.

diaglo · Jun 25, 2003

hong said:
And what is more, I cannot believe that they left out air guitar as a subcategory of Perform. This is shocking, you hear me, shocking.

or lapdance or striptease or fandance or Ben Dover or etc...

Datt · Jun 25, 2003

Sorry if this has already been answered but I didn't see it:
Does anyone know if they changed the spell level for Stoneskin?

Also:

Originally posted by Olgar Shiverstone

i. Critical Hits: Multiple effects that expand critical threat ranges no longer stack. (Munchkins may weep).

Does anyone know if this means that a Keen weapon won't stack with Improved Critical? If that is the case, thanks! I won't be wasting money for keen weapons anymore. I can get IC and it will effect all weapons of that type. I can't think of anything else they could be talking about.

Lord Ben · Jun 25, 2003

If that's true they changed my favorite feat into something relatively worthless. Why take the feat if you can just get a scabbard of keen edges which applies to any weapon you put in it?

I suppose it still has it's uses because it's always on if you have the feat, but it's not as good as it used to be. Not that I'll house rule it or anything, I think that criticals were horrible on most weapons anyways, especially high str falchion users.

Henry · Jun 25, 2003

Has this been posted yet?

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49584

From Andy Collins on 6/25/03, at 2:00am :

Multiple effects that expand critical threat ranges no longer stack.

There were simply too many characters running around with 12-20 threat ranges, and when you're threatening a crit on nearly half your rolls, it's no longer "special."

Sorry if it has.

JPL · Jun 25, 2003

diaglo said:
are they talking piano or dulcimer? or pipe organ? or xylophone?

many if not all of these are already included in other instrument categories.

While piano is a percussion instrument, it doesn't make much sense to lump the ability to play drums together with the ability to play piano.

Likewise, pipe organ is a wind instrument, but it is played by a keyboard, and the ability to play organ is more closely related to the ability to play another keyboard instrument [such as piano] than the ability to play, say, flute or trumpet.

A dulcimer, as far as I know, is a stringed instrument. Hammer dulcimers are played percussively...but I'm not aware of a keyboard dulcimer.

A xylophone can be laid out somewhat like a keyboard, but it's quite a stretch to consider it a keyboard instrument. It's percussion.

So keyboard instruments would include anything reasonably close to a piano --- pipe organs, piano accordions [and probably buttom accordions / concertinas, although the "keyboard" is different], melodicas, harpsichords, and Hammond B-3s.

[jpl just got a mandolin, and is considering quitting his day job and getting the band back together...]

Shard O'Glase · Jun 25, 2003

Henry said:
Has this been posted yet?

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49584

From Andy Collins on 6/25/03, at 2:00am :
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple effects that expand critical threat ranges no longer stack.

There were simply too many characters running around with 12-20 threat ranges, and when you're threatening a crit on nearly half your rolls, it's no longer "special."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry if it has.

yeah already noted, but I missed the orginal quote so this makes my quoting of you easier than finding the original.

It's bad decision I think. The weapons that had the big crit ranges did less damage on a non crit. That's why they critted more often. Even with improved crit and keen, you had to get your str up to a really high level for these weapons to on average beat out the non super crit range weapons against creatures who could be critted. These weapons were cool but not powerful, unless they change the base damage on these weapons they just made them weaker than the other weapons which narrows diversity.

Apok · Jun 25, 2003

Plane Sailing said:
Huzzah!

I concur.

At long last, the Enlarge spell finally has some game logic applied to it! Yay!

Psion · Jun 25, 2003

Olgar Shiverstone said:
The assassin becomes a spontaneous caster.

Thumbs down. I never liked assassins as automatic spellcasters, but at least I could buy that they might be trained in this art. The idea that all assassins have natural magic talent associated with spontaneous casting seems rather off to me. Do assassins only recruit members with sorcerous talent. Feh. No likely, but at least it affects a class I already didn't like.

Only fighters get the Tower Shield feat for free.

Fine by me.

t. The Perform skill now has subcategories (like knowledge):

Ouch. Don't want to use that, but don't know how I can avoid it and still use it with the new bard if their skill point increase is based on this.

Several spells have changed schools. Teleportation spells are now Conjuration (Teleporting) instead of Transmutation. Spells that utilized fear or curses have tended to get shifted to Necromancy. The power word spells are now Enchantment. The symbol spells are all either Enchantment or Necromancy.

Interesting. Big shift, but it might be worth it.

ii. Days spent in item creation need not be consecutive. Your wizard can spend a couple days on a magic sword, go adventuring, then come back and finish it a week later.

Seems fine.

s. More on DR: A creature with DR no longer automatically ignores the same types of DR with its attacks. When carried to the extreme in this new system, that creates some really strange effects.

One one hand, I don't see how they could have avoided this change in the face of the new system.

On the other hand, as discussed in the DR thread (which died an early death) , this has some BIG umbrella effects WRT fiends. Effects that I am not happy with.

That said, due to the closed state of said thread, I was unable to cede Coyote6 his point that the increased damage of fiends may make up for this.

4) A creature with DR bypassed by a certain alignment (chaotic, evil, good, lawful) doesn't necessarily have any special ability to bypass other DRs (but see #5, below). Devils can't hurt other devils any better than anyone else can.

That's the problematic one, IMO.

5) The natural attacks AND weapon attacks of a creature with an alignment subtype (Chaotic, Evil, Good, Lawful) can overcome damage reduction as if those attacks and weapons had an alignment (or alignments) matching the creature's subtype(s). Fiends are really good at hurting celestials, and vice-versa.

Not sure why this should be the case. I mean I could see either protection against opposite alignment being good or the damage being good, but saw no reason to shift.

ii. Teleport is limited to 100 miles/level.

jj. Meteor Swarm: (snip)

kk. Enlarge: (snip)

Seem reasonable to me.

Apok · Jun 25, 2003

Olgar Shiverstone said:
i. Critical Hits: Multiple effects that expand critical threat ranges no longer stack. (Munchkins may weep).

Well, the Rapier and Falchion wielders of the world can still boast a 15-20 threat range, which is damn good. This also makes the Power Critical feat even more worthwhile, so I don't have a problem with this change.