Encounter balance help

Folks, I would appreciate a second (or third, etc.) pair of eyes on this campaign kick off encounter. It's designed for 3 PCs of 1st level (Sentinel|Warlord, Fighter, Rogue).

The PCs are attending a public ceremony when an assassination attempt occurs. Presumably, the PCs will attempt to intervene and prevent the NPC public figure from being killed.

Thus, there are three factions, though the PCs and the "good" NPCs have the same goal: prevent the murder, and they will not face off as enemies.

My question for you: Do you think this is balanced? I assume there is a likely chance the PCs may not be able to prevent the major NPC's death and expect such.

The NPC is a 4th level Mul Gladiator, leveled down from Elite to Standard. He is guarded by 4 soldiers (Human Rabble L2 Brute Minions).

The enemy force is a Defiler Assassin L4 Artillery, Elven Assassin L2 Skirmisher, 5 Human Slaves L1 Brute Minions, and a Maw Demon L2 Brute that will be summoned on round 1 of combat (after a surprise round in which one of the PCs is likely to participate, due to high passive Perception score).

In the surprise round, the Elven Assassin and Human Slaves will pepper the Mul Gladiator with arrows/bolts from range. One PC will get an action during this round. The Defiler Assassin will climb the stage to engage the Mul Gladiator.

On round 1, the Human Rabble soldiers will move to engage the Ex-Slaves. The Defiler will summon the demon and the two will assault the Mul Gladiator, while the Elven Assassin continues to attack from range.

Combat continues to proceed from there.

Terrain features include:
* a stage (2 squares x 4 squares) 5 feet high
*market stalls and tables that provide cover
*a tower (2 squares x 2 squares, 3 squares high) from which the Elven Assassin rains arrows down at the "good" NPC (also an Unstable Monolith single-use terrain feature)
*a Vicious Animal L3 Warder hazard
*ubiquitous Salt Pile single-use terrain squares
*and the possibility the crowd could turn into a Vicious Mob leveled down to L1 Brute swarm (if the PCs take actions that cause the crowd injury).

Thanks in advance for any aid!

Well, sounds like the 2 NPC sides aren't drastically different in capability, though the assassins are a bit stronger. Clearly the party, plus its allies, can and will prevail. So its just basically a question of if the bad guys can kill one level 4 standard before they go down or he escapes.

Its hard to be certain how difficult that is, without knowing exactly how people are positioned. If the bad guys can get right in the victim's face quick, and its hard to get out of the line of fire of the elf, then potentially in a couple rounds it could go bad for the good guys. Well, that's what being an adventurer is all about, things suck, then they get worse! (its DS after all, they surely don't get BETTER).

I think you have enough elements for one encounter. Given that it has a good plot, it should work out OK.

Thanks for the feedback, [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]. Your analysis is precisely how I hope I've set up this scenario.

[MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] , I think you have the makings of a good encounter.

One thing I would warn against. Do not give the the bad guys a surprise round unless this is a legitimate outgrowth of mechanical resolution at the table. Surprise Round (in D&D) is an actual mechanical advantage gained due to the way turn-based combat and the action economy works. If the bad guys don't actually earn that mechanical advantage, it looks like a moment of GM Force to me.

There is nothing wrong with narratively describing an ambush to your players (and making clear to them that this is just fictional positioning/scene framing, not mechanical advantage), but I would strongly advise against giving a legitimate, unearned action economy advantage.

Manbearcat said:

[MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] , I think you have the makings of a good encounter.

One thing I would warn against. Do not give the the bad guys a surprise round unless this is a legitimate outgrowth of mechanical resolution at the table. Surprise Round (in D&D) is an actual mechanical advantage gained due to the way turn-based combat and the action economy works. If the bad guys don't actually earn that mechanical advantage, it looks like a moment of GM Force to me.

There is nothing wrong with narratively describing an ambush to your players (and making clear to them that this is just fictional positioning/scene framing, not mechanical advantage), but I would strongly advise against giving a legitimate, unearned action economy advantage.

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Interesting, but let me ask you a question [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] (is there also ape, wolf, shark, bulette, or maybe some dragon in there, lol). What actually constitutes the mechanical basis of surprise in 4e? Now, in AD&D surprise was precisely defined. In fact it was one of the few very well and carefully defined mechanical fixtures of the game, about which there was relatively little doubt (perhaps this is an interesting point about AD&D agenda-wise, I hadn't thought about it much until now). 4e, surprisingly, AFAIK, doesn't really have such a well-defined definition of how and when one is surprised. It COULD happen if you fail an Insight or Perception check, but that's NOT an exhaustive list of reasons. In fact I would personally say that nothing in 4e's rules really suggests that the DM can't or shouldn't simply decree surprise. I would generally base it on a failed check, or as some consequence of some decision or judgment articulated by a player, but I don't feel like that is mandated. In any case 4e surprise is so much less potent than AD&D surprise that it doesn't feel, to me, like a big deal. This case particularly seems OK, as the story is effectively starting in media res so it feels sort of like whatever decision lead to being surprised may simply be a given at the point where the players enter the story.

It should be tough, but I don't think too tough.

AbdulAlhazred said:

What actually constitutes the mechanical basis of surprise in 4e? Now, in AD&D surprise was precisely defined. In fact it was one of the few very well and carefully defined mechanical fixtures of the game, about which there was relatively little doubt (perhaps this is an interesting point about AD&D agenda-wise, I hadn't thought about it much until now). 4e, surprisingly, AFAIK, doesn't really have such a well-defined definition of how and when one is surprised. It COULD happen if you fail an Insight or Perception check, but that's NOT an exhaustive list of reasons. In fact I would personally say that nothing in 4e's rules really suggests that the DM can't or shouldn't simply decree surprise. I would generally base it on a failed check, or as some consequence of some decision or judgment articulated by a player, but I don't feel like that is mandated. In any case 4e surprise is so much less potent than AD&D surprise that it doesn't feel, to me, like a big deal. This case particularly seems OK, as the story is effectively starting in media res so it feels sort of like whatever decision lead to being surprised may simply be a given at the point where the players enter the story.

Click to expand...

Well, what we're given is the very cogent "occurs if any creatures are caught completely off guard at the start of battle."

So we basically have to adjudicate the fictional positioning of the situation. The way to do it is (a) consider the context and (b) deploy the resolution mechanics. Typically (as you mention), you're talking about an Insight test for transitioning from Social Scene to Combat Scene or Perception an Exploration Scene to Combat Scene or Combat > Combat. I say test rather than contest, because I don't roll dice in these situations. I'm usually using the Medium DC and sometimes using the Easy or Hard DCs if the fictional positioning warrants.

Every now and again, Nature or Streetwise might be subbed for the test.

Now 4e doesn't outright mandate (in explicit terms) that Surprise isn't something that a GM can impose by fiat. However, 4e is (a) extremely player agency sensitive as a whole (going to great lengths to ensure it) and is (b) very adversarial to GM Force as a whole (going to great lengths to mitigate it).

So while I agree that Surprise isn't nearly as potent as in prior editions or as in 5e (for a number of reasons), it is still a non-insignificant action economy boost that scales with number of beneficiaries.

Given these things, when the fictional positioning goes from neutral (or especially from aware and alert; in the case of high Wis characters or characters with features that hedge against Surprise) to the adversarial status of "caught completely off guard", I think its against the holistic ethos of 4e to just declare that fictional positioning status change by GM fiat (especially so when there are rules that can easily be consulted to make that determination).

Finally, when you double down by itroducing an "escort NPC" or "protect NPC" trope to the combat, I think actual mechanical Surprise Round by fiat compounds the problem. It is one thing to do that to 4e PCs who are amazingly resilient to front-loaded salvos (by design) and can nearly always get off the ropes to rally. It is another thing entirely when a "not so resilient NPC (or group o them) of which the asymmetrical point of combat is to ensure their safety" suffers the same mechanical disadvantage.

Manbearcat said:

Do not give the the bad guys a surprise round unless this is a legitimate outgrowth of mechanical resolution at the table. Surprise Round (in D&D) is an actual mechanical advantage gained due to the way turn-based combat and the action economy works. If the bad guys don't actually earn that mechanical advantage, it looks like a moment of GM Force to me.

Click to expand...

Really? The enemy actions in the surprise round would be (a) for the Defiler to move into position) while (b) the other enemies, the Elven Assassin and Human Slaves, make ranged attacks against the NPC. Doing a rough calculation of the "enemy" NPC attacks, the average damage they inflict is 12.15 (before the possibility of any critical, which only is relevant for the non-minion Elven Assassin, so let's be generous and round that up to 14), enough to soften up the target a little but not make a serious dent in his 56 hp total. Also, the Druid character would, through light of her 19 passive Perception score, get a chance to act, possibly taking out a few of the minions before they get their attack, depending on initiative rolls and how she decides to act.

My thought was along the lines of what AbdulAlhazred suggests: the scene begins in media res, but because one of the characters the player brings to the table has exceptional awareness of her surroundings, she gets to jump into the action before it unfolds completely.

Now, I can give the other characters a Perception roll if the Druid cries out an alarm or something during her action, which is more along the lines of what you suggest, I think, but the characters don't know each other previously to this scene and I don't want to presume this is an action the Druid will take or that the other characters will act in turn.

I would like there to be a greater chance that the PCs fail in their attempt to stop the assassination than succeed, so softening up the NPC with a little damage before the fight "gets serious" appeals to me. (Of course, I could just lower the starting HPs, but that spoils the effect of having a tough ex-gladiator able to withstand tremendous punishment.)

My fear is that if the PCs all get turns in a surprise round, they can potentially take out all 5 crossbow-wielding Human Slaves if all their attacks hit (Magic Stones for the Druid, RBAs for the other two). Then it devolves into a fight on only two fronts: against the Elven Assassin perched in the tower and against the Defiler who will summon the Maw Demon on stage. And if that happens, then it becomes PCs plus 4 Guards, plus Ex-Gladiator against these foes, and the scenario is thus a cakewalk.

darkbard said:

Really? The enemy actions in the surprise round would be (a) for the Defiler to move into position) while (b) the other enemies, the Elven Assassin and Human Slaves, make ranged attacks against the NPC. Doing a rough calculation of the "enemy" NPC attacks, the average damage they inflict is 12.15 (before the possibility of any critical, which only is relevant for the non-minion Elven Assassin, so let's be generous and round that up to 14), enough to soften up the target a little but not make a serious dent in his 56 hp total. Also, the Druid character would, through light of her 19 passive Perception score, get a chance to act, possibly taking out a few of the minions before they get their attack, depending on initiative rolls and how she decides to act.

My thought was along the lines of what AbdulAlhazred suggests: the scene begins in media res, but because one of the characters the player brings to the table has exceptional awareness of her surroundings, she gets to jump into the action before it unfolds completely.

Now, I can give the other characters a Perception roll if the Druid cries out an alarm or something during her action, which is more along the lines of what you suggest, I think, but the characters don't know each other previously to this scene and I don't want to presume this is an action the Druid will take or that the other characters will act in turn.

I would like there to be a greater chance that the PCs fail in their attempt to stop the assassination than succeed, so softening up the NPC with a little damage before the fight "gets serious" appeals to me. (Of course, I could just lower the starting HPs, but that spoils the effect of having a tough ex-gladiator able to withstand tremendous punishment.)

My fear is that if the PCs all get turns in a surprise round, they can potentially take out all 5 crossbow-wielding Human Slaves if all their attacks hit (Magic Stones for the Druid, RBAs for the other two). Then it devolves into a fight on only two fronts: against the Elven Assassin perched in the tower and against the Defiler who will summon the Maw Demon on stage. And if that happens, then it becomes PCs plus 4 Guards, plus Ex-Gladiator against these foes, and the scenario is thus a cakewalk.

Click to expand...

My only thought here is that if you want the assassination attempt to be very difficult to foil, don't rely on subordination of the basic resolution mechanics to do so.

Just use the fundamental machinery of 4e to make it so. Ensure the player's and the system both have the agency they're supposed to have.

The mechanical question you're asking isn't so much one of encounter balance (the PCs will almost surely defeat the bad guys, especially if they're spending action economy on defeating NPCs). It is "how do I make assassination prevention difficult while ensuring both player/system agency and an engaging tactical situation?" 4e has great system tech for this:

1) Make the NPC an up-leveled Minion.
2) Give the NPC an encounter power that ups their resiliency (such as Immediate Interrupt +6 to defenses UeoYNT).
3) Give the NPC an At-Will power vs Will that lets them shift and prevents them from being attacked by the target UEoYNT.
4) Give the NPC a Move Action At-Will that lets them shift.
5) Make the NPC's guardians Minion Soldiers with the ability to (a) Mark and (b) eat an attack (thus killing them) for the NPC while adjacent.

Then you can throw a HUGE Encounter Budget at the combat as the bad guys try to kill the NPC, the NPC tries to survive, and the NPC guardians try to protect the NPC. Meanwhile the PCs try to hinder/kill the bad guys and protect the NPC.

I've done this sort of things several times. I lay the mechanics bare to the players so they understand the inherent danger of the situation and vulnerability of the NPC (therefore the impetus to use positioning, their control effects, and Immediate Actions to prevent death the Minion). I give the players the opportunity to play the NPC/guardians if they wish or I've brought in a neutral 3rd party to play that NPC crew. Therefore, I play the HUGE Encounter Budget bad guys to the hilt, the neutral 3rd party plays the NPCs, the players play their PCs.

EDIT - I think Up-leveled Minion with the ability to get out of trouble and an Encounter Power that lets them buff their defenses hugely UEoYNT does the trick for "tough gladiator that can withstand punishment." While at the same time, the inherent vulnerability due to Minion status would transfer the urgency and desperation of the situation to the players (which is what you want).

My word, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], you've given me a lot to think about ... and just when I was pretty sure I had shaped this wet clay into a hardened vessel of dynamic action. Time for some reglazing or ... nevermind, this metaphor collapses.

Manbearcat said:

My only thought here is that if you want the assassination attempt to be very difficult to foil, don't rely on subordination of the basic resolution mechanics to do so.

Just use the fundamental machinery of 4e to make it so. Ensure the player's and the system both have the agency they're supposed to have.

Click to expand...

I see where the argument exists that by forcing a surprise round here, I'm denying that agency. I'm not sure that's categorically true, for the reasons AbdulAlhazred addresses above, but if there is a better framework that highlights 4E machinery without forcing them into a certain direction, I am willing to rethink this.

The mechanical question you're asking isn't so much one of encounter balance (the PCs will almost surely defeat the bad guys, especially if they're spending action economy on defeating NPCs). It is "how do I make assassination prevention difficult while ensuring both player/system agency and an engaging tactical situation?"

Click to expand...

Ah, "so much depends / upon / a red wheel / barrow"! You've done an excellent job of rooting out the heart of the matter here, which my proximity to the scenario muddied somewhat.

4e has great system tech for this:

1) Make the NPC an up-leveled Minion.
2) Give the NPC an encounter power that ups their resiliency (such as Immediate Interrupt +6 to defenses UeoYNT).
3) Give the NPC an At-Will power vs Will that lets them shift and prevents them from being attacked by the target UEoYNT.
4) Give the NPC a Move Action At-Will that lets them shift.
5) Make the NPC's guardians Minion Soldiers with the ability to (a) Mark and (b) eat an attack (thus killing them) for the NPC while adjacent.

Then you can throw a HUGE Encounter Budget at the combat as the bad guys try to kill the NPC, the NPC tries to survive, and the NPC guardians try to protect the NPC. Meanwhile the PCs try to hinder/kill the bad guys and protect the NPC.

I've done this sort of things several times. I lay the mechanics bare to the players so they understand the inherent danger of the situation and vulnerability of the NPC (therefore the impetus to use positioning, their control effects, and Immediate Actions to prevent death the Minion). I give the players the opportunity to play the NPC/guardians if they wish or I've brought in a neutral 3rd party to play that NPC crew. Therefore, I play the HUGE Encounter Budget bad guys to the hilt, the neutral 3rd party plays the NPCs, the players play their PCs.

EDIT - I think Up-leveled Minion with the ability to get out of trouble and an Encounter Power that lets them buff their defenses hugely UEoYNT does the trick for "tough gladiator that can withstand punishment." While at the same time, the inherent vulnerability due to Minion status would transfer the urgency and desperation of the situation to the players (which is what you want).

Click to expand...

I'll need to play around a bit with the mechanics and starting positions of the NPCs here (for example, in my inital set up, I had thought to have the ex-gladiator alone on stage, but if I go with having his guards be able to absorb hits, some of them will need to be atop the stage too), but your suggestions do provide an interesting, and potentially quite exciting, alternative.